Transcript 0:00 It's inc- it's incomplete, and the reason is because I have lived, like, miserable corporate circumstances, and those miserable corporate circumstances are so different from running an ultramarathon. Huh. 0:15 They're so different- Oh, such a good point... than going through, than going through BUD/S. Yeah. It's, it's just, it's so different on so many levels that, okay, cool, you can be cold and wet for a while, but, like, 0:27 you know, how are you gonna do soul-sucking, boring ass work every day for someone that you don't respect- Yeah... 0:37 right, maybe in an organization that's unethical and toxic, like, you know, and where you would much, where you believe [chuckles] your calling lies elsewhere. Like, I mean, there's... 0:46 And that's just, I'm, you know, I'm soft peddling that. Like, there's a whole bunch of other circumstances people live through in corporate where, like, uh, okay, great. 0:55 Like, how's that ultramarathon helping you right now? Like, I don't think it's helping a lot, to be honest. Hey, Andrew. Hey. Shodar Tree. [laughs] Is that right? Yeah, you got it. How are you? 1:09 Really glad to have you on Titans of Transition. Yeah, so even before the SEAL teams, I was on a ship, uh, beforehand because I, I didn't get SEALs out of the academy. 1:23 There were, I wanna say fourteen, maybe sixteen guys from my class who- They lucked out, did they?... got accepted to the SEAL teams right out. Um, I did not, and so if you want to, uh, 1:37 still go that route, then you need to find a way to lateral transfer in, and the, the tried and true path to do that, even though it's not many people get selected, is to go on a ship as a shipboard officer. 1:49 So I did that. I lucked out. I'll spare you a long story there, but I lucked out and, and got selected for BUD/S, um, Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL Training, the, the basic SEAL training, and yeah, ended up there. 2:03 After the SEAL teams, I went to business school 2:07 right as the financial crisis of 2008 was happening, which is both the best and worst time [chuckles] to go to business school because, you know, you, you're s- you've already opted out of the workforce for a little while, so you're spared some of that fear and risk and everything else, and I'm a, a pretty risk-tolerant in- individual, but had a family, so, you know, it was, it was nice to, you know, ha- for all of us to have some shelter during that time. 2:32 At the same time, when you're trying to re-enter for internships, you know, not too long later and full-time jobs, um, it, it was, it was awfully challenging. So I had always been interested in Wall Street and markets. 2:47 Uh, at the same time, I was thinking I, I wanted to do something entrepreneurial, but tech was not hiring at all. Ironically, it's a financial crisis, but banks were hiring. 2:56 Um, so ended up doing, uh, trading of, of commodities derivatives at Barclays Capital, um, which was, was super interesting, super fun, but made my way into tech after that. 3:10 And, uh, at the time, there were, were not a lot of precedents for people who with non-technical backgrounds like myself to go into something like product management in software. 3:24 Um, now it's like there's tons, tons of people. Um, but at the time, that, that was not the case. 3:31 Um, so I had to kind of work my way up into that and, and eventually was leading, um, some of the most technical projects at Amazon, at Wayfair, uh, at Capital One on the AI side. 3:45 Um, yeah, so lot, lot, lots of pivots along the way. Yeah, that's fascinating. And so, um, and then the last pivot into doing what you're doing today, how did that come about? 3:58 Um, well, it, it, I, interestingly, although I am entrepreneurial by nature, uh, this particular pivot happened because I got RIF'd, uh, reduction in force- Mm-hmm... for those who don't know what that means out there. 4:12 Um, but, uh, my team and I got laid off at Wayfair. There were about, I wanna say, if you include the one where we got laid off, and I think there were some after, um, something like four RIFs in three years. Uh- Oof. 4:26 And so we, yeah, my team and I dodged the bullet, um, a few times, but, [chuckles] uh, eventually, eventually all got hit, and I didn't, um, I didn't panic. I... That's not really my nature. 4:39 Um, and I had also been, you know, in corporate for a while, so took it easy trying to figure out what was next. But had been passionate about leadership, um, teams, culture for a very long time. 4:51 Already had a podcast, had already been writing about it, and, uh- Yeah, it's the Warrior- The Warrior Poet. That's right. Poet. That's right. Yeah. 4:59 And, um, a buddy of mine i- is from the SEAL teams that I, was in BUD/S with me, is a, is a coach. Oh, cool. And, um, I, yeah, I looked at him, and 5:08 I was kinda like, "No offense, man, but, like, we have the, the same resume. I, I feel like I can, [chuckles] feel like I can do what you do." 5:14 Um, you know, I'm still, still evolving my craft, uh, and he is, he is a master of his, but, uh, that's, that's how I got started in this. One thing comes out is that often some of them can be 5:26 transitions you don't choose, that are thrust upon you, and that's the RIF, and I've been through several of those myself in my career, and, you know, 5:36 there's a lot wrapped up into that, it, the emotional impact of that in terms of how do you kinda master the pivot, I guess. Um, 5:46 and then there's those where you, you reflect and you consider, you know, the path that you're currently on, the position or the gig you're on. Is it the best one for you for various different reasons? 5:59 And it's more proactive, and you, you choose your timing. 6:03 So I just wondered, um, can you talk about lessons learned through the pivots you made and, and how you, how one masters it, uh, given this, these different kind of paradigms? 6:14 It's a, it's, it's a work in progress, but I'll, I'll share what I have learned through doing this many times. Um, and maybe we can break it up into the knowing if you wanna pivot, the process of- Sure. Yeah... 6:30 of choosing what's next and getting what's next. And then, and then the other, the last one is, like, a- actually adjusting once you're in the new thing, right? So, um, let's do the easy one first. 6:43 So I'm sorry, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna go out of order, but, uh, just to get a quick win. I believe in quick wins early. So, um, 6:51 the, the adjusting to what's new, it's, it's funny 'cause I don't, I don't, I don't give myself too much credit for this, but, and maybe it's just the military adaptability, but it-- 7:05 in some jobs that I've been in, including this, um, fashion startup, uh, in 2011. It was the, it was the fastest growing company according to Inc. Magazine at the time. Like, just hyper-growth. 7:17 They needed someone to herd cats, and so I show up there and, uh, it was, it was me, you know, after SEAL teams in Wall Street, reporting to a woman who reported to a woman, and then there were 39 women under me. 7:32 We eventually hired one guy, uh, under me. But, um, you know, very different environment and, and a fashion product, and I don't pretend to know a lot about fashion, especially women's fashion. But, um, 7:45 something like six weeks in, I met some stakeholder, an in-internal stakeholder, and, uh, they were-- they thought I had been there for, like, a year already because of just, I don't know, what I, what I knew, how I carried myself and those sorts of things. 8:00 And, and so, you know, breaking down what I do in those situations is, first of all, be, be very humble coming in. Um, lose the ego as much as you can. I-- 8:16 What I have observed sometimes happens with people when they're in a new thing is they just feel this overwhelming need to prove themselves immediately and a fear that they'll be found out, imposter syndrome, and a little bit of, 8:35 um, overcompensation for not knowing what to do and how to carry themselves. And so they, they adopt this sort of mask of, like, what, what someone should be doing. And then mix, mix, mixed with 8:49 the, you know, risk, risk aversion. Um, and so, like, I, I do the opposite of all of those, y-you know. So, uh, I mean, I, I have, I have, I have, I have a pretty big ego that I've been working on over the years. 9:01 So I'm not, um, holier than thou, but, um, but I do... You know, I'm not into change things right away. I'm not into prove myself. Like, I've done enough in my career by that point, 9:13 and I believe in myself enough where, like, hey, you know, if I disappoint someone in the first week, I-- it's not gonna phase me. It's not a big deal, right? 9:22 Um, whe- whereas for other people who maybe haven't gone through hard things, that's like, that's an existential dread of-- for them. For me, I'm just like, "F it." Like I don't, I don't care. 9:33 I don't have anything to prove to you guys and gals. Um, and, and then, uh, adopt a learning mindset. Just ask stupid questions over and over and over again. 9:43 Obsess about the details of, how does your team actually do their job? How am I supposed to do my job? How does my boss do their job? What-- how does this company make money? 9:51 Like, just all the stupid questions over and over and over again. I-- it's, it's actually kind of rare that new people dig in to that level of detail, even though they're the people who definitely should do that. 10:06 And then I'm, and then I'm just not afraid to take risks and make decisions when I need to. So that, that's-- I said that was the easy one. I spent like 10 minutes on that. But- No, but there's-- I- Yeah... 10:15 I, I can pull on a couple threads there. Of course. I, I, I just love this, this part about, um, not sort of pretending or not trying to, to boost your cred. 10:28 You're, you're sort of overreaching trying to prove yourself and trying to attain something that you probably already have, and you just don't have enough confidence in yourself. 10:41 And it, it actually starts if, if you're interviewing, it shows up and it's an off-putting thing right from, from there. 10:49 But then on the other side of it, someone who's comfortable in their own shoes or someone who's confident in what they've done, they can look back and say, "You know, it wasn't perfect. 10:58 I learned a lot, and I got a wealth of experience that I should just calm down because, you know, it-it'll be fine." And, um, having that degree of confidence, it's attractive. 11:12 You know, when I, when I have interviews with people or I, I coach people or I talk to people and they're unabashed, they're confident in who they are, they know who they are, 11:23 and, you know, they can bring something to the table and they're, they don't feel like they're trying to prove something all the time. That's actually very attractive to others. 11:35 And, and you're more apt to put your trust in that person than someone who sh- who comes up with this mask in front of them. Do you follow what I'm saying? Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, there's a, 11:47 there's a, a word gravitas, right? Gravitas, yeah. Gravitas. 11:51 And the, and the-- or, or if we just wanna say simple word gravity and, you know, this applies in all sorts of contexts, not just business, but dating and social relationships and other, other things, right? 12:01 And the person who can have a lot of gravity, um, you know, it's called that for a reason 'cause you, you pull people towards you 'cause you're confident, you know who you are, uh- You have a level of independence and, and self-worth that isn't, it... 12:16 Yeah, like not, not dependent, to reuse the word, on other people. And you're authentic. Yeah. Yeah. And these days, I mean, one of the biggest 12:26 bad odors people get in relationships is sniffing out someone who's just not being themselves. It's very off-putting, and in the age of AI, we have, 12:36 you know, even more sensitivity to, to sort of, "Am I talking to a real person here?" [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I... Yeah, I think that's, that's one thread I wanted to pull on, uh, for sure. 12:50 What about the, uh, the sense of, of a person being stuck that you coach or, you know, uh- Yeah... how, how to get people broken free from their stuckness? Yeah. If I can put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. 13:06 There's, uh, there's so many elements of this, and, uh, if it's not obvious to people, I'm not a mental health professional, although us c- we coaches often, you know, help people with those issues. 13:19 Well- I'm told I'm good at it. Yeah. But yeah, like, um- Qualification... you know. And, and I'm also not a career coach, right? 13:27 But I, I've done enough mentoring of people and coaching and, and done enough pivots myself, seen enough companies and industries where I can, I can help with a few things. So, um, 13:40 big reasons people get stuck, stream of consciousness, being depressed, and maybe they don't know they're depressed. So they're, uh, I believe it's called anhedonia, and there's like, uh, dys- dysthymia. 13:56 Um, uh, anhedonia meaning, like, y- you, you can't get joy out of things. Dysthymia, I believe, is, um, if I recall correctly, is it's like a low-grade depression which can last months, years, decades. 14:11 Uh, and um, that is a huge cause for, uh, a lot of people, um, because there's, associated with depression for people who are familiar with cognitive behavioral therapy, which is one of the few, um, modalities that's actually very proven in terms of its effectiveness in, in psychology and in clinical help. 14:35 Um, there's, uh, a bunch of cognitive distortions, and one of them is hopelessness. 14:41 So if you are, if you are depressed, like you are, you are very likely to fall into a bunch of these cognitive distortions, including hopelessness, um, 14:49 including all or nothing thinking, like I've gotta be Elon Musk or I'm a failure, right? Um, or, uh, generalization, right? 15:00 Of like, like this one bad thing happened, like that must mean that, you know, everything I'm doing is bad. And there, there's a, there's a bunch. There's like 12 or 14. I won't run through all of them. 15:08 So, uh, depression is a big one, um, lack of self-worth, uh, re- uh, rejection sensitivity disorder, uh, ADHD. 15:19 Um, you know, related to ADHD is just, uh, simple lack of impulse control. 15:28 Um, so if you look at, uh, perfectionism and procrastination, which are way more overlapping than a lot of people realize, um, there's a, there's a few great books which I'll mention, but a- and if you can remind me. 15:41 But, um, in, in one of them, the Procrastination Equation by Dr. Peter Steel. Um, it's great. I wouldn't start there for people trying to fix their procrastination. Like I said, I'll, I'll drop a couple other options. 15:56 Um, but it's, it's kind of like the, the 201 class or the 301 class, I think. It's a little denser. 16:01 But he breaks down procrastination into its component parts in a, in a kinda mathematical, simple formula way, and then breaks down with like different, um, for the first few chapters, like what kind of procrastinator are you? 16:15 Like what, which of these elements in the formula do you specifically have a problem with? Um, and a couple of those are impulsivity. Like some people just have higher innate impulsivity. 16:27 It doesn't mean you can't fix it. It doesn't mean you can't work on it, but like you, you just need, uh, you need more stimulation, you need more novelty, and you, uh, some people also, they, they time discount 16:43 differently, right? There are... We all know those people who like if there's something down the road, like they're happy to sacrifice for it now. 16:51 And like we all know that that is a huge part of what being an adult is, which also stigmatizes the, the failure for people, right? When like it's pervasive. 17:03 Uh, and so some people, by their neurochemistry, especially ADHD people, are like they have a much, much, much harder time sucking it up and doing the thing for the long term. 17:19 Um, so there, there's a, there's a host of things there. Um, and then, you know, and then there's a s- a social aspect of like fear of rejection. So like, and that manifests in a whole bunch of ways. 17:31 Um, one could be, oh, I wanna start a business, but like if it fails, then I'm a failure. Or it could be family reasons, right? Like what's my family gonna think of me if I give up on this thing? 17:44 Um, you know, and take, take risk. Uh, there's sunk cost fallacy. I know I'm like, sorry, I'm enumerating like a thousand things, Joe. 17:52 Um, there's a sunk cost fallacy of like, oh, I spent 10 years in management consulting. Like, you know, it's so much time and effort, like I must might as well see it through. 18:01 There's plenty of people who stay in the military. Right. Yeah, there's plenty of people who stay in the military for 20 years, even though at five years, like they were already bored, done, whatever. 18:12 Now, granted, like I loved, loved, loved the SEAL teams. I got out mainly for family reasons. Also 'cause I wanted to do a... There were other things I wanted to build and create in the world. 18:21 Uh- And I, you know, it, it's not like I-- And I also wanted to write about political things occasionally and things like that, and I, I didn't like having those restrictions, right? But the, like, the job was amazing. 18:31 But there are lots of jobs in the military that aren't amazing, right? And where you're living your dream. 18:37 Um, but people stay in for twenty years because there's sunk cost fallacy, there's security, there's all those things. So- Like- I gave you-- I threw a bunch at you... 18:44 often tied that, yeah, the sunk cost one often tied to comfort zone, right? So it's like maybe you're really not jazzed about what you're doing, but the fear of stepping away from something that's okay, uh- Yeah... 19:01 keeps you- Yeah... in the comfortable zone or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll toss a, a few more out, right? One... Sometimes people are waiting for a revelation. 19:15 They're waiting for a eureka moment, you know, uh, like Road to Damascus thing. Mm-hmm. Like whatever cliché story we wanna reflect, go back to. Like, they're waiting for this aha to be like, "Oh my gosh," like, 19:30 "This is my passion now," or, "This is the idea for the startup." And sure, those things happen sometimes, and I, I believe strongly those things happen, 19:46 like, more to certain people than others. But you can't wait forever to, to try the new thing. And, like, the other different types of people are the people who are, like, passion people versus not. 20:02 Like, in a sense, we're all children in big bodies. We all want to do something we're passionate about. 20:08 But I also strongly believe that some people are like Cal Newport, if you and your listeners are familiar with Cal Newport- Newport... the, the career capital guy- Yeah... the deep work guy. 20:17 Like, very, very smart on work things, but he is a very, very certain type of individual. He is the guy who will do, like, boring 20:28 stuff for, I'll leave the expletive out, than just, like, not really be excited about stuff and just, like, plod every day. Again, there are many people who are not like that. I am not, I am not like that. 20:41 But despite those differences, like, sometimes you just need to try a new thing and, uh, and not wait for the eureka moment. 20:50 And may- and, and maybe to Cal Newport's credit, like, maybe do something that is not like, you know, going to the circus or, you know, acting on Broadway or whatever your dream is and like, but try a new thing and, like, build some mastery. 21:05 And, like, we, we all know that, like, empirically, regardless of whether we're all on a spectrum of different things, I don't mean autism. Like if we're on a spectrum of different preferences, blah, blah, blah. 21:14 Like, we know empirically though that mastery does, for, for pretty much all of us, produce, like, good neurochemicals and confidence and all sorts of other things. Right. 21:27 But one of the things I wanted to bring up is that we may all know, like just the, use the example you just used about mastery, we may all know what the result can be for, for people who lean into that. 21:40 It's the question of how, and how we're different and we're wired differently. And this comes up in, when I coach people a lot. Um, people typically know what they want. Mm. They're, they're kinda stuck because 21:55 of the tapes in their heads, the soundtracks. What's the right way for me to do this? And it just doesn't fit them. So you may be a more spontaneous person. That's what I am. 22:08 To use the Kolbe index terminology, I'm a quick start. It's easy for me to initiate with what appears to be unfounded grounding and high risk. I have enough data that supports my intuition to take a move in a direction. 22:26 So for me, that's natural. If I'm in a culture and environment that's keeping me from doing that, it's not a good fit. Mm-hmm. And the opposite's true too. 22:38 If you're a person who needs to see a lot of data and, and facts and, uh, demonstrated case studies of what works before you'll take a step, then, 22:52 uh, it's gonna be very uncomfortable if you're working for someone, for example, or you're in a culture that demands you to, to take quick action and, and get quick results right now. 23:03 And I think one of the challenges is you have to determine what kind of person you are, how you were made, 23:10 what you bring to the table in terms of your natural gifts, and the ways that you show up and you're the most effective. Those can be then applied to any challenge, to any scenario, and you can be successful, right? 23:27 Yeah. Yeah. It's when it-- Going across the grain, typically the d- I can pick up on this, this dissonance, this sort of in the center of a person's friction, and they, and they don't know what... 23:42 So that can be a cause sometimes for feeling stuck because they're like, "I'm being pulled to be a certain kind of person that I'm not." Hmm. Yeah. You know, and this is beyond do, can I, do I have the skills? 23:56 I mean, 'cause you can develop skills in many things and become competent, 24:01 but that upper elite level of performance tends to come when you combine the training and the competence with the natural innate abilities, uh, in that particular, uh, scenario. So anyway- Yeah... 24:15 those are some thoughts. What do you think? Get your- Yeah. I, I... So many great thoughts there. The thing that sticks out to me the most is- That some people really wanna 24:29 figure out, like they're stuck on how to do the thing. And the reality is, for so many things, there is no playbook. So, you know, if, if you wanna be a doctor, there's a playbook. There is a path, right? 24:44 If you wanna be a Top Gun pilot- Mm-hmm... there is a path. Now granted, like you might not make it, but, um, in either of those fields, but there's a very clear path. Accounting, same thing. 24:56 But like for many things in life, the probably the most important things in life and the most rewarding, there's not a path. And then there's so many things where 25:09 we delude ourselves that there is a path, but the reality is like 25:13 the thing is not that hard and, um, plenty of people have succeeded just winging it [laughs] and just, just talking to people, learning to people, making mistakes and just keep going and having the fortitude to, uh, to make mistakes and bounce back, resilience, right? 25:33 Um, is, uh, if you wait for, if you wait for the perfect playbook and just study forever on how to start that business, like you're never actually gonna do it. 25:45 You could sp- you could spend your entire life studying how to start a business. But like at some point, you need to just do it. Um, and that point is probably way earlier than, than we're comfortable with. 25:58 I have an idea I would like to try. Let's translate these discussions back to the whole BUD/S ex- situation. Okay. 'Cause I'll, I'll just tell you where I'm coming from and maybe we just test the idea. 26:10 It may flame out, I don't care. Sure. So because- Quick start... of how I'm wired. [laughs] Um, so one of the things I've learned talking to the few people that I've met who've been SEAL team graduates, [laughs] 26:25 BUD/S graduates- Mm-hmm... is, and there's stuff like this available obviously in movies and whatnot, but it's often, and David Brown, uh, is one that comes to mind because he's, he was really small guy. 26:39 He was like, I don't even know if it was five foot. He was really small and like the typical paradigm people have is to be successful 26:48 as a SEAL, you have to be ultra macho in the sense of physique, strength, and that's what's really gonna carry the day. But what you, what I end up hearing a lot of stories is there's something else that, 27:02 that they're searching for and it's that resilience, I guess adaptability. I don't know, I'm just riffing here. But they're, they're looking for something else. Um, yes, physicality definitely makes a difference. 27:16 There's no question because they put you through hell, you know? 27:20 But the people that, that don't end up ringing the bell are often not the ones you would expect, and the people who do ring the bell are often the ones that you don't expect to ring the bell. So 27:35 I think there's a crossover here into what we were just talking about. Yeah, I mean, physicality is necessary but not, not sufficient. Um- I like that, not sufficient. Yeah. Uh, 27:49 there are so many more elements that go into being a SEAL. Um, and there are lots of, there are lots of great athletes out there in the world, right? But they would not make great SEALs for a zillion reasons, right? 28:05 Some of them are individually how they would operate. Many are, yeah, like you, okay, you can train, you know, to be an Olympian in, you know, all these circumstances but, 28:18 you know, you know, there, there are great athletes who like actually when stuff gets hairy, like they're not gonna be that resilient. Um, many, some of them show up to BUD/S and they, they wash out. 28:30 Uh, they don't have that, um, determination to a- and, and follow through to get through that. 28:37 Um, adaptability, like team ability, um, which is kind of a funny word that some of my SEAL brothers use but I, but I like it. Uh, so some people just aren't, aren't as teamable, um, especially under pressure. 28:50 It's one thing to be, you know, a great team when everything's going well but when like, you know, shots are fired or it's cold and wet, like, you know, then you see people's true colors and who they're actually out for. 29:03 Um- Mm-hmm... so anyway, there's, there's a zillion things, uh, there that, that make physicality not necessary but not sufficient. 29:09 What I'm thinking about is, you know, we often think about qualifications for a job, physicality to be a- Mm-hmm... SEAL. 29:19 We often think about obviously grit and, and, um, resilience and determination as important factors. But I think that we get stuck sometimes in a situation 29:36 and get into, and there's lots of different factors. You talked about a lot of different psychological potential causes for feeling stuck and to not successfully navigate through. Mm-hmm. 29:46 But there's things that are s- I would say the sort of the core essentials of your being that we don't talk about enough. Mm-hmm. And we don't talk about... 29:56 And we started this conversation out talking about being the real you, being unapologetic when you talk about your, one of your pivots and showing up and saying, "I don't care. 30:05 I know I'm not, not everything's gonna be a success in the first week. I'm not gonna freak out," right? And how attractive that confidence is 30:14 and I think that if your center isn't, if, if you don't really know who you are and you don't really have the ability... 30:23 You know, I, I did martial arts for, for a good amount of time when I was younger in kung fu and, and first thing you learn to do is, is stand 30:34 And, and get your center of gravity low Mm-hmm And then you talk about moving, but you don't do anything until you get your stance right. Yeah. So sometimes I think we talk about the things on the outside, 30:48 and we don't talk enough about the things on the inside. Oh, yeah, for sure. And, and- I, I, I'm-- And I think that comes out when you put anyone under a dir- tremendous amount of stress. Yeah, for sure. 30:59 And Bud's a, a great case study of being under a tremendous [chuckles] amount of stress. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it, it's 31:12 even more confusing because of all of the people who are writing and talking and everything else about grit and resilience, and it's, um... There are a few problems with it. 31:25 One is a lot of people talking about this stuff haven't actually done things that are that hard or stressful or, or, you know. 31:32 And so it's like, okay, well, your lived experience doesn't match up with what you're talking about, even if you are a fancy PhD at someone and have a best-selling book, right? 31:41 Um, and might happen to model, you know, much or, or, or tell much of your stories and, and data based off of [chuckles] you know, military stories. Um, you yourself haven't actually lived that. 31:54 And the other issue is that, um, resilience and grit are, uh, conflated a little bit, and I, I, they're, they're not the same thing to me. Resilience being how you bounce back, right? 32:06 And grit is kinda this overall, overall baseline for how you get, get through things. Um, and, you know, that's my own shorthand. Um, but the, the other main issue is that a lot of times there's no 32:20 recipe for, "Okay, cool. You've convinced me through this entire book how to, how to have, you know, that I need to have grit." Like, okay, what, and resilience, what do I do now? And, um, 32:32 if you want, we can talk, we can talk about resilience tools. I've got, I've got some tips for people, but, um, you know, like the, the standard answer is do hard things, right? 32:44 Like go, you know, do your, do your, uh, ice bath, you know, go run, run an ultramarathon, like all this stuff. And to me, that is, it's an incomplete solution. It's inc- it's incomplete. 33:01 And the reason is because I have lived like miserable corporate circumstances, and those miserable corporate circumstances are so different from running an ultramarathon. They're so different- That's a good point... 33:16 than going through, than going through BUD/S. It's, it's just, it's so different on so many levels that, okay, cool, you can be cold and wet for a while, but like, you know, how are you gonna do soul-sucking, 33:31 boring ass work every day for someone that you don't respect, right? 33:37 Maybe in an organization that's unethical and toxic, like, you know, and where you would much-- where you believe [chuckles] your calling lies elsewhere. Like, I mean, there's... 33:46 And that's just I'm, you know, I'm soft pedaling that. Like, there's a whole bunch of other circumstances people live through in corporate where like, uh, okay, great. 33:55 Like, how's that ultramarathon helping you right now? Like, I don't think it's helping a lot, to be honest. Um, so focusing on that, on that... But focusing on that who we are, um, is still critical. 34:10 So there are elements that I look back at BUD/S of where someti-- or, or in the SEAL teams on operations, um, commanding operations in Iraq, where like, uh, there is this, uh, kind of being centered element. 34:25 You mentioned, you know, center of gravity, you know, but in a, in a, you know, almost a, I'm gonna put in quotes, air quotes here for people listening, um, "spiritual" sense of like being present, right? 34:37 So Stoicism, Buddhism, mindfulness, right? Like if you can lose some element of being conscious of yourself, right? We use the phrase self-consciousness all the time, self-conscious, but like that's what it means. 34:49 It's like where you're thinking about yourself and how other people perceive you. 34:53 If you can lose that, and if you can lose the, "Hey, this is what happened in the past, and this is what might happen in the future," and if you can lose all of that and just be present, 35:03 um, because you have no choice to do that in BUD/S. 35:05 Like, and, and, a- a- and the people who obsessively think about tomorrow are more likely to quit [chuckles] because, like it's just sheer miser- as miserable as you can possibly imagine from this moment until time interminable, you know, relatively speaking. 35:23 That like you can't think about anything except just this moment right now and... But how, you know, doing that is key to unlocking a whole lot of things in life. Yeah. Well, that's good. 35:36 I mean, and it-- when you're under those intense circumstances, whether it's 35:43 experience like BUD/S or you're going through corporate hell, and you're not sure whether or not you're on the next layoff, and then what are you gonna do? 35:50 There's a bit of biology here, you know, to consider is all of your energy needs to be focused on the big challenge that's in front of you. Mm-hmm. 35:59 So if you take yourself out of the present moment, future, past, doesn't matter, you are expending energy. Your brain is expending energy. 36:07 Your body is, is getting pulled into that, and, and you're getting distracted, all those other things. So- Yeah... the challenge needs to be met, uh, that's in front of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 36:19 Yeah, Joe, can I, can I give another example? Please. Just 'cause I-- this is a little bit [chuckles]... I just... It's almost a rant. This is how passionate I am about, about this stuff. Love it. 36:27 'Cause like is-- let's say, let's say you have built a business, and, you know, you've, you- Cashed out your family's four oh one K, and you spent all these nights and weekends away from your wife and family, uh, and kids, and, you know, your friends barely call you anymore to social events and birthdays because they know you're not gonna show up 'cause you haven't shown up before 'cause you've been working on your business. 36:52 You know, in your mind, though, it's all for an end, right? You're having an impact, you're employing people, and your family's gonna get to this, you know, great horizon. 37:01 Um, but some market event happens and, you know, you're losing money hand over fist, and you spent five years building this thing, maybe ten, maybe twenty, and now you gotta fire, like, half your workforce, and you don't know what's next. 37:16 How much is that ice bath you've been doing every day helping you, right? Like, I don't think it's helping at all. I really don't. Right. Yeah. It, it doesn't matter that you climbed Everest at that point. 37:26 It doesn't matter that you made it through BUD/S. Like, the situation is fundamentally effing different. Uh, and we need other tools to [chuckles] solve these things. Yeah. Uh, that's, that's really cool. 37:39 Uh, you made me think of this thing I say a lot is that, uh, often there's a disconnect in a person's, 37:47 uh, situation because they're, they're, they're struggling with the world is not the way the world, meaning their situation, is not the way it should be, right? Yeah. 37:55 And they're stuck in this loop, and they're talking about it. "But I shouldn't be treated this way. My boss should listen to me." Whatever the, the tape is, and sometimes I-I you just have to say, "Whoa. 38:06 That's interesting, but that's not the world it is," you know? So you're not dealing with the world it is. 38:12 So in your situation, ice bath, all these other things, the world the way the world should be are great, but right now, you, you gotta take care of your family. You gotta take care of the most essential things. Yeah. 38:27 You know, you, you have to face reality. Otherwise, you're living in dreamland, you know? Yeah, yeah. And I- It crosses over into this stuckness. Let me f-finish the thought. Yeah, please, please, please. 38:36 Often people, um, that I... And I don't consider myself sort of the traditional career coach either. I'm more the, the coach that gets into, um, discussions about why people aren't happy with their career. Yeah. 38:49 And, and one of the situations is, is just this. They, they keep waiting for things to, the world that they think is the right world to live in arrives. Because, hey, you know, I've done all these things, you know? 39:02 I'm so valuable and, you know, and, and maybe even their, their leadership is saying, "Well, your time will come. Just, you know, hang out," whatever. But in reality, they know deep down it's not gonna change. 39:15 The culture's not working for me. So you really do have a choice. You have agency. Agency, there's a good word maybe we can talk about. You have agency to make a decision. If you're gonna stay, 39:28 be satisfied with the world it is and be okay with it. Otherwise, change your situation. Yeah. Yeah. There is no middle ground. You're not changing it. You've tried for the last five years. It's not changing, you know? 39:43 Right. Right. So anyway, it just, it just brought that to mind. I wanted to throw that out, and then agency came out. It... Yeah, no, I mean, I, I think your point generalizes to all sorts of things, right? 39:52 It's, um, it go- it gets to the, uh, one of the pieces of the heart of, of being stuck. Um, there's a related concept that, that you reminded me of. Peter Pan syndrome, right? That's the concept I'm talking about. 40:08 We all can fall prey to that, si- again, some more than others, and be in denial about what the real situation is and crave a world that is not reality. 40:19 Uh, b-but something that I think about a lot 'cause I'm, you know, an entrepreneurial person in tech, um, Steve Jobs, the, the phrase they used to use for him was, was reality distortion field, um, right? And- Yeah... 40:33 he was able to achieve great things, um, 40:38 yet s- the, a-and, and part of maybe the reason he was able to have these, this, this vision of the future for so many different products and industries is because he refused to accept what the reality of the world was. 40:54 But the, maybe, maybe, 40:58 uh, one of the causes of him, like according to many, not being a really great person or maybe even, to speculate a bit, maybe not even really a happy person, is because he couldn't accept reality, right? 41:13 So how do we get the bost- best of both worlds? I don't pretend to know the answer, right? But I suspect it's, like, not tolerating the world as it is on a, uh, 41:25 on the long term or maybe in some specific niches short term, but yet being generally able to ex- like, see the world objectively as it is today and hold that, hold that loosely without resentment. Maybe? I don't know. 41:42 What do you think? There are tactics. Obviously, he was a force for change. He was a change agent. He had a very clear vision of what he wanted to do, and he leaned into it hard, right? 41:54 And, uh, so that's the other thing. If a person wants to stay in their situation, there are tactics, and I'm sure you, you have your, your team and your, and your leadership tactics, you know. 42:06 Um, one is to, you know, to really s- lean into relationships. It's often, especially you bring up being in the tech world, we always talk about people process technology, but the behavior is technology process people. 42:22 And people- Yeah... the people area is only in because you can say, "Well, just before I'm gonna roll this out, I better check on Frank 'cause I know he's an a-hole, and he'll probably oppose me on this." 42:32 [chuckles] So how can we remove this barrier as a, as an afterthought? Uh, but to, to get your credibility up, you have to invest time demonstrating Your trustworthiness and your ability to deliver. 42:47 And it goes against the grain for a lot of people to do that, but that's a tactic where you can then extend your circle of influence because of the credibility that you have gained. Then you can start to affect and move 43:01 and affect the culture and, and bring forward the reality that you'd like to see. Yeah. 43:07 But when a person is stuck and they don't even understand they have any control at all, right, and they're waiting for the change to happen, you know, that was the sort of- Yeah... first level to crack that egg, so. 43:18 Yeah, no, I, I... Well, I forgot to address the, the word you, you raised, which is a good word, which is agency. And, um, it, it-- and there is some tension there, right? We, we can't- Yeah, absolutely... 43:28 assume that we're responsible or can-- or that we can control everything 'cause that's a recipe for misery. 43:34 Yet the paradox is, like, in order to affect the great change in your life that you need at any given juncture and over, over a lifetime, you kinda do need to assume that you can, that you can do it, and you are responsible for doing it, um, and not, not waiting for change. 43:52 So, uh, I, I an- I do use the phrase full agency all the time, but you also have to be able to give yourself grace and realize that we're, we're all mortal in a big world. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so we, we... 44:06 A- another word I use, well, we're, we're throwing out w-words, but is, is nudge. Like- Yeah... you can, like, just nudge things a little bit today- Small moves... in the direction you want. Yeah. 44:20 And, uh, that's the best you can hope for. And if with enough nudges, like, things will- Moves... go your way, you know, more than they have been. 44:30 But you only drive with your small moves forward in the direction of your goal, you can be successful. Yeah. But if you get distracted, you know- Yeah... not so good. Distraction is a, is a- Killer... con-concept though. 44:47 Like, focus and distraction I feel like are, um- Maybe overused... the word... Well, the words are, they're, they're imbued with so much judgment. Yeah. Right? 44:57 So for, for, you know, some of my clients and other folks, sometimes myself, like, you know, it's almost like we're yelling at ourselves to be focused. "Don't be distracted. Be focused. Don't be distracted." Um, 45:11 and, and the idea that anyone is distracted, you know, is, is we all look down upon that, even though we're all prey to it. And again, s- like, if you are an ADHD person, you are just more distractible. 45:24 There's nothing wrong with who you are. That is just the case. There are tools. There are medications. I am not a doctor, right? Yeah. Yeah. But like, uh... And I, I am, I am ADHD. 45:35 I have not actually tried medication yet, but I've worked on it through other things. Um, but you're just more distractible. 45:41 But, like, we're bombarded with stimuli all the time, and especially for those who are in business, right? And if we wanna just make it even more narrow, in the corporate world, there's stimuli all the time, right? 45:51 All sorts of characters who are emailing you, offended, you know, trying to win your trust, like a bunch of different priorities. 45:59 And it's so tempting, and I realize in retrospect, like, looking at my own career, like, there were times early on and maybe even middle where, like, I was, I was reacting to too many of those stimuli. 46:12 And some people, they just w- maybe they had great mentors, maybe it's just their personality, and sometimes it's just pure selfishness because they know focusing on these narrow things will get them promoted and get them stuff and, and get them more money. 46:27 But either way, some people are just, you know... I'm impressed, you know, when a, when a twenty-five-year-old can just tune out all the noise and just, you know, get to the heart of the matter. 46:37 It's hard-it's harder in corporate, right? You're not so- you're not curing cancer, right? If your cur- if your company is curing cancer, you know the goal is curing cancer, right? 46:45 If you are on a SEAL team, like, the mission is very clear. Yes, you can get distracted in those fields. But everything happens within that broad category. Yeah. Right. 46:54 But if you're, if you're working- It changes all the time. Yeah, but if you're working for, if you're working for Amazon, right, or Meta, just the sheer number of opportunities and, like... 47:05 But their salience is, like, they're all kind of in this middle band, right? And there's very few, unless someone tells you it's the huge priority, like, that is up here. 47:15 And there's, like, barely anything that is [chuckles] that is very low salience that you feel like you can ignore. Yeah. No, that's fair. And I do like that you brought out, you know, the differences in people. 47:25 Um, again, awareness, uh, of who you are and how you modulate that against what you want to accomplish, what degree do you let yourself be distracted? 47:36 'Cause there's actually a really big advantage for people who, who are generalists today- Mm-hmm... than there used to be. Yeah. So, and, and breakthroughs and 47:47 technology, major shifts in technology don't occur within the paradigm that's ruling the day. They occur at the edges, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so there's real value in that. 47:58 So sometimes I think it's good to budget the time that you... And allow yourself, if you're that kind of a person who, uh, has many interests, and I'm like that, in many different areas, 48:11 try to allow yourself a block of time to do it. Uh, don't try to shut it off, 'cause then you're gonna be doing this again, right? Yeah, so just so much, Andrew. 48:23 I just feel like we could probably [chuckles] go another hour, but I just wanna be respectful of the time. Um, what I would like to do, let's just... I had a couple notes. Y- 48:34 if you-- If any books come to mind, we can drop them in the show notes. I know you mentioned that. Yeah. 48:39 Um, resilient tool- resilience tools, maybe spend a couple minutes to talk about that, and then we'll do a sort of a wrap-up. Yeah. Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll, I will mention just one book, uh, one additional- Please... 48:53 book in addition to the one I mentioned earlier, The Procrastination Equation. 48:56 Um, for anyone struggling with perfectionism, procrastination, I can't recommend enough the book, How to Be an Imperfectionist by Stephen Guise, G-U-I-S-E, G-U-I-S-E, Stephen Guise with a PH. 49:10 I'm having to spell this a lot. Um, How to Be an Imperfectionist. It's a, it's a blue book, uh, got it here somewhere. Um, th- it's like- Fun... 125 pages, very small. 49:21 Um, you get it on paperback for probably less than 10 bucks on Amazon, right? So, so good. Um, resilience tools, so, um, we gotta take, take a quick step back to the fundamentals. 49:35 Um, and i- ironically, I, I don't know if I've ever seen anyone describe it this way. Um, I'm sure Buddha did, uh, millennia ago. But, um, 49:47 for the average person, uh, let's say adult, um, in Western society to confine it a little bit, uh, you're, you're up, you're up here, and then stimulus comes in, and you have a spike, and then it takes you a very long time to come down, and then another spike happens pretty soon after that. 50:10 What we're trying to do through mindfulness is, and presence, is bring your baseline down. 50:17 So instead of starting up here, you're starting here, and then when a stimulus comes in, it's not a huge spike, it's a little spike, and then you come down super quick. 50:26 And then, and then stimuli, stimuli are always gonna come in, but your reactivity frequency lowers too. So it's a triple win. 50:34 You have a lower baseline, you have a smaller spike of reaction, let's anxiety, fear, whatever, uh, and, and the frequency's less. Um, 50:45 and so there, there are other tools besides mindfulness, but, like, that is the core because that is what is gonna help you experience less in the moment 50:56 and then come down faster to a, to a baseline of what should be normal. But, like, so many people in, in, in, in civilization, like, aren't experiencing a real normal, um, all the time, so yeah. Yeah. 51:12 I think about, uh, all we get with media, 51:17 uh, uh, hitting us all the time, all the really short bursts of the, the TikTok world and all the attention-grabbing things from technology standpoint, the phone, all that stuff interrupts all driving dopamine, all, all going wild. 51:33 Um- Exactly. It- Exactly, yeah... falls right into that- Right... problem. And so mindfulness, I don't know, um, what the specific tactics are or if there's books- Yeah... you can recommend on that, but- Yeah. 51:45 Yeah, totally. Well, uh, uh, I mean, before I get there, I- I'm glad you mentioned dopamine, and if we wanna throw in cortisol, like, we're all talking neurochemicals these days. 51:52 Like, but, you know, improving your neurochemistry, which is possible, um, I understand, like, Andrew Huberman is a controversial figure somewhat now. Yeah, I like him. 52:03 But, uh, but, you know, like, the science on his podcast is great, right? He's great. For people who wanna learn about their neurochemistry and how to adjust it, highly, highly recommend, right? 52:13 Despite, you know, whatever. So, um, and I don't pretend to be an expert on him, just like I'm not an expert on Michael Jackson. So, um, 52:22 the things you can do to increase your mindfulness are walk, especially in nature, without, without AirPods in. Like, not listening to, not, not, not listening to this podcast- [laughs]... 52:33 although you can listen, you should listen to the pod- Wait a minute... you should listen to Joe's podcast every day besides that. Um, but, uh, meditation is, is the biggest game changer, honestly. 52:43 Um, making sure you're getting good sleep, um, getting rid of toxic people in your life. Uh, box breathing is a huge one. Um, it doesn't have to be bo- the box. 52:54 So the typical box breathing, for people who don't know, is you... 52:58 I'm just gonna use an arbitrary number of seconds, but let's call it inhale for five seconds, hold for five seconds, exhale for five seconds, hold for five seconds, right? Um, I do a modified version of that. 53:08 It's big- beyond the scope of this, this conversation. Um, and so tho- those are, those are some, some things you can do for mindfulness. Um, for people who 53:18 have never done meditation before, for many people, it, it might sound a little woo, but, like, trust me, like, I, I... 53:27 It is the thing that has probably changed my life more than any other practice or tool, and the best part is it's free, and it's been around for millennia, uh, and it, and it works. 53:39 But if you need to get, if you need to get started, Tara Brach's podcast, B-R-A-C-H like the candy, B-R-A-C-H, Tara Brach, is free. Every other episode, she does a, a meditation. 53:47 The others are talks, and then, which are also good. And then, um, like Calm or Headspace apps, they have three free trials. 53:54 Like, try for 30 days, do the basics, and if you don't want them anymore, like, they're amazing. Um- And I just wanna interrupt. I mean, I'm- Yeah... a person of faith. 54:01 I'm a Christian, and so long history of the spiritual fathers doing meditation practices, prayer. But- Yeah... um, you know, there's a little bit of a nuanced difference, obviously, between, you know- Yeah... 54:17 the way practices are, th- the difference between emptying versus filling, you know, some of these things. Yeah. 54:22 So if you are a person kind of, of my persuasion, don't be afraid to go back and learn about the early, early church mystics and, and their approach to, uh, meditation. 54:37 Uh, has the same physical, many of the same physical benefits that you're gonna find, uh, lean into your prayer, prayer life spiritually if, if you're kind of, of my ilk. [laughs] Yeah. 54:47 Well, I, I grew up, I grew up Catholic, and, um, I'm not practicing anymore. But, um, one thing that I, I find is that there are a lot of, um- 54:57 A lot of Christians and probably people of other faith persuasions who have been told by their ministers that meditation is evil and, you know, and that they should fear Buddhism, Stoicism, these sorts of things, right? 55:15 Uh, and I don't, I don't claim to be a, a Buddhism expert, right? 55:19 But the reality is, like, they're tools that are compatible with your existing faith, and why not avail yourself of those, like, really, really practical tools? So, um, 55:33 at this point, sort of wrapping up, first of all, this is great conversation. I feel like we've gone all over the place. I think our- Yeah. [laughs]... mutual ADHD is, uh, showing its colors. 55:45 Um, but anyway, I, I, I hope this has been beneficial to you all listening in and watching this. Um, where can people find you if they wanna reach out to you, Sri? Yeah. 55:57 Uh, I have a podcast also, the Warrior Poet Podcast, um, about to rebrand at some point in the future, but I will let everyone know. Um, but it's under the Warrior Poet podcast. Um, 56:10 and, uh, andrewsridhar.com, andrewsridhar.com. Um, my name is obviously in the, the episode. Um, yeah, that's where I am, and you can find me, you know, all my socials through there and, and everything. 56:22 And, uh, yeah, would love to talk with people. Yeah. And, and as I just, uh, referred to, it might be good to have another conversation, so if you're listening in, drop your comments or questions, 56:33 and we get enough interest, uh, we'll schedule another time to get together and, and field some of those questions. So listen, Andrew, I really appreciate your time. 56:41 It's been great getting to know you, and, uh, look forward to staying in touch in the future. Yeah, Joe, this has been so much fun. 56:49 Uh, great getting to know you as well and, and talking with your audience, and I appreciate you having me on. All right. Great. Thank you. Hey, thanks for joining me today on Titans of Transition. 56:58 I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please check the show notes for additional information.
