Transcript 0:00 Welcome to Titans of Transition. Having challenges finding that right job for you? 0:06 Tune in as we talk to Sarah Baker Andrus, a job search strategist who has been on all sides of the job search equation, both filling positions, recruiting, and also advising candidates to nail that perfect job. 0:26 Come listen in as Sarah blows up some of your assumptions on what it takes to land that job. Okay, let's get into it. Welcome, everyone. I'm so happy to have Sarah with me today. 0:41 Um, really fits in well with the theme of this podcast, Titans of Transition. Sarah is a job search strategist, and I love her tagline. She says, "I help people make bold career moves." 0:57 I first came across Sarah, uh, she had a TEDx Talk up, and it was really great. 1:04 And I said to myself, I jotted a note, I need to kind of reach out to Sarah and see whether or not I can get her on the, the podcast and the Cha- YouTube channel. Sarah has an interesting background. 1:15 Her original degree in political science and government, and then went on for an MA in education policy and adult learning from the University of Maryland at College Park, uh, a career including marketing. 1:32 I'm so happy to have you here on Titans of Transition. Well, thank you, Joe. It's always fun to talk about how people make changes in their careers, so I'm delighted to be here today. 1:44 Why don't you unpack a little bit more about your background and, and maybe if you would, take a few minutes and talk about your own personal transition from your educational background, your industry background, how you became a career strategist. 1:59 Oh, sure. Absolutely. I think like most of us, I fell into my career path by accident. It just was a, a happy accident. 2:09 I was in graduate school and, uh, I had the good fortune to have a job on campus where they had me providing some advising for adult students who were returning back to school, either due to layoffs or coming out of the military. 2:26 So I w- I was younger than the vast majority of the people I was talking to, and I was so inspired by them. 2:34 I was so inspired by their willingness and capacity to make change at different stages of their life, and I think that stuck with me. 2:44 And while I continued to stay in academia for a few years and went on to help people find, uh, internships and jobs and things of that nature, I had this curiosity about the business world and I thought, well, you know, I'm not sure academia is for me, 3:03 and I'd like to try something else while I can. And I had been inspired by these students that I had been working with who had made changes in their lives. So I thought, why not? Let's give it a shot. 3:13 And the obvious transition for me was to move into recruiting, because it was so closely related to what I already knew. 3:22 And I was really lucky to find an opportunity with a company where I was able to help them grow their recruiting program, as well as eventually build a team of my own and become one of the more senior executives so that I got to understand how the recruiting process fit into the larger goals of the organization. 3:44 And this really meant over time that I've kind of sat on all sides of the recruiting equation. I've been a career counselor, I've been a recruiter, I've been a hiring manager. So- Hmm... 3:57 when the biggest transition of my career came up, which was a, uh, layoff in 2014, I thought, this is a great chance to test my intentions, I guess you'd say. 4:13 This was a great time to test my intentions of becoming an entrepreneur, because if I didn't do it then, the time was getting a bit short to do it. So I started Athara Careers. 4:26 We do career coaching as well as, uh, consulting on staffing. And as you said, uh, in the opening, we try to help people make bold career moves. 4:36 And of course now, in the, uh, time we're living in right now of the Great Resignation and the impact of the pandemic, people are really looking to make sure they have a good career fit, and I love- You know-... 4:50 helping them with that... if I could just interrupt there, there's a couple things that I just, I want to swing back to. First of all, you used the word bold career moves, right? 5:00 So I'm just kind of curious why the word bold? It's very strategic on my part because the fact is that there's a cycle that most of us go through when we are thinking about a job change. 5:16 Something triggers us, something annoys us, something doesn't feel right, or we see an opportunity and we think, I want to go for that. There's a lot of energy and boldness in that. 5:28 So we immediately might take action, but usually we're not taking the best action. Hmm. And what happens is then the fear set in and we stall- Yeah... and this becomes a cycle. Something else triggers us. 5:45 "Oh, it's time to make a move. Let's, let's try again." 5:48 So the boldness that I think I help people with is to avoid the stall, to avoid the fear, or to, if not avoid it, at least work through it, understand it's coming, and develop some tactics for dealing with it so that you can achieve that bold move that your best self really knows you're capable of. 6:09 Yeah, it's really interesting 'cause I think the people I've talked to over the years coaching and also most recently doing this podcast, it's clear that, uh, just what you were illustrating there, that there's this fear component. 6:25 On one hand, they're being pulled forward by something. You know, maybe, maybe there's friction, maybe there's something that's really nudging them to get out of their comfort zone, the status quo. 6:38 And you know that we all can get stalled into that status quo, the safety zone, it's biological, all that stuff, 6:45 but there is a chasm, you know, w- th- Crossing the Chasm was the title of a book in business, and it's a different kind of chasm, but at, from a personal level, there is a chasm there, 6:56 and we see the other side metaphorically, we wanna get over there, but that fear just keeps us stuck. And so- Indeed... one of the con- conversations I have, and I'm, I'm sure you, you have this too, 7:11 people are asking to be transported to the other side without having to take that risk, without having to be bold. Yes. And that's why I think I connected with that bold word. Yes, I think I call that magical thinking. 7:26 Bet. We have the dream, we have the thought, and so then we kind of don't recognize that action on our part is required. N- no fairy godmother's gonna pop out of the sky and grant you your wish of the dream job. 7:38 It really does take some intentional targeting and consideration and self-reflection on what you have to offer, and what, what's gonna be a good fit for you. Essentially, you're coaching people through this process. 7:53 You're giving them advice, obviously, and direction, but you're coaching this, them through this process. 7:59 Do you see there being some kind of a tipping point that you recognize when they're ready to make that bold move, or do you ask them to take small steps? I'm just wondering what your strategy is there. 8:10 Yeah, it's very much of a beginning with what we control, which is ourselves. And that helps take some of the fear away- Yeah... because most of our fear is of what we don't control and what we don't know. 8:25 And if we begin with ourselves and we get a really clear picture of what we want, and I do take people through exercises to help figure out, well, what's gonna be the best environment for you? Where are you gonna thrive? 8:37 What's the management style that you're going to really, uh, do well with, or what values of an organization are important to you? So we can go through that. 8:46 And then I really recommend a proactive approach, and that means targeting specific employers that you're interested in, rather than taking the passive step of putting your career in somebody else's hands by just clicking apply on a job board. 9:03 Mm. So it's about getting to know yourself well and then practicing how you wanna talk about yourself and how do you wanna present yourself. 9:13 Uh, confidence can be built with practice, and I know this from teaching at, at the University of Delaware. I teach undergrads, and one of the classes is on public speaking. 9:25 And of course, we all know public speaking is a big fear. Yeah. 9:29 Well, it, what is a job search if not public speaking over and over and over again, and volunteering for rejection in an environment that's fraught with obstacles? 9:43 That's why I say bold, because it requires boldness to land well. And the other great news is it's absolutely a skill you can acquire. Mm. Just requires some practice, and some- Mm... 9:57 guidance and coaching can help you go a lot faster. 10:01 Yeah, and I, I like the sequencing too, because you do work first to get the person in touch with what they really wanna do, and that then directs their marketing actions of themself, versus a reactive, passive kind of approach, put themselves into a pool of a billion other people where they go through the traditional recruiting path and talking to people that don't even understand the job that well at first. 10:26 The other thing we can do by focusing on what we want, the people who are looking to make these kinds of transitions have a portfolio of knowledge, skills, and abilities, and it's worth considering, where do I wanna invest that portfolio? 10:42 And the typical question in a job search that most of us, you know, intuitively might ask is, will they hire me? And the better question is, do I wanna work here? Yeah. And that gives the energy to overcome the fear. 11:00 That's great. So, so that really is what pulls them across the chasm and overcomes the fear. If you think about, you know, fear being at a le- certain level, if they have enough to pull them across on the positive side, 11:16 then it will tip and they'll, they'll go in that direction. I like that. 11:20 And if they're just doing the passive approach, the more traditional approach of finding a job by posting their resume on a job board, or even going through an application online process, th- they're already in a, 11:34 sort of a negative energy state. I don't know if that's the right way of putting it. But, uh- Not only that- Yeah... 11:40 but statistically, they're putting themselves at a distinct disadvantage because we know the most current research is that there are tw- 250 to 300 applicants for every job. Well, those aren't very good odds. 11:54 Uh, and we also know that only 20% of job openings for professionals are currently advertised on a paid job board like Indeed- Right... or LinkedIn or Glassdoor. 12:06 So by taking the targeted employer approach and by knowing what you have to offer- You are able to get at that 80% of the jobs that you won't find on a publicly paid job board Such good advice. 12:23 Are there specific examples you could share with us of clients that you have taken through this kind of transitions? 12:30 Obviously, there's a confidentiality issue there, but I'm just thinking maybe a way of underscoring some of the things you're, you're teaching us today. Yeah, absolutely. Um, 12:41 the client who comes immediately to mind is a very accomplished senior executive for a tech company whose name you would recognize, and he had a, 12:56 an opportunity to take a retirement package. So many people are coming to me who have an opportunity to take a retirement package. Opportunity. Yeah. An opportunity. How about that? Yeah. 13:08 [laughs] So when he came to me, he said, "I'm not ready to retire. I would really think about what I wanna do. I wanna think about what I wanna do that can have a... 13:22 All this expertise that I've gained over the course of my career, how can I have an impact on the world? I don't need to contribute to any company's bottom line anymore. 13:33 I wanna really think about what's important to me and where the skills that I have and my experience are going to, uh, have the greatest impact." 13:41 And so we worked together, and interestingly, I encouraged him to simultaneously continue to apply to jobs at organizations he was looking at while he was- Hmm... also exploring this business idea that he had. 13:57 And the reason why you wanna do both is to actually compare, how do I feel when I'm in this interview? How do I respond to the type of opportunity that they're presenting me? 14:11 And he was very fortunate to be a incredibly accomplished, really well-educated, very well-connected guy. So he was getting interviews for big positions. Mm-hmm. And 14:22 h- I would talk to him after each interview and say, "Well, you know, what's the temperature? How did you feel about that?" And with each one, he said, "Not as good as I feel about trying this idea that I have." 14:35 So what that allowed- So it was a validation process. Yeah Well, and it's, again, getting to know ourselves. Yeah. Where, where is that energy and enthusiasm? And what 14:45 he found was that even though going out on his own was going to be a bigger risk, it had a greater reward, and he's doing- Hmm... really well, and his business- Oh, that's-... is thriving. Yeah. That's awesome. 14:58 How, how long of a period of a time were you engaged with him? I'm just kinda curious. In this case, it was about three months. Yeah, that's- So not that long. Yeah. I mean, once you make a decision to really do this, 15:13 it can go pretty quickly, and, and you set the pace. I think the other important piece here is who are you talking to? Because there's no need to, uh, kind of reinvent the wheel. 15:30 There are people who've gone before us and made all kinds of transitions, whether it's starting a business or going to a different industry or navigating the networking challenges, and again, that's a learned skill. 15:42 You can talk to people and find out what they did. 15:45 And, you know, a very underutilized resource is actually job boards for research instead of job boards for, you know, do I qualify for that job, which is a process of self-elimination. Hmm. 16:02 How about s- looking at this and saying, "Huh, I wonder who's hiring in this industry?" And then- I see... talking to people at those organizations. Using it as a way of clarifying what you really want- Precisely... 16:18 by... And, and sort of the opportunity side, too, um- Yes... the hiring side, the trends. That was a powerful example, by the way. 16:27 Um, uh, in a couple different ways, this gentleman, very accomplished, sort of in the seasoned part of his life, he still needed to think this stuff through and get clarity, and once he did, he was successful and has been successful after he made this transition. 16:46 So I think that can be very encouraging to folks who maybe are earlier stages in their career, knowing that- Absolutely... still a process. Yeah. 16:55 I think doing the research and looking at the opportunities actually gives us a foundation for a bold move. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 17:04 Yeah, you know, for me, a- and, and I think we chatted about this a little bit offline about how a c- a career can be a zig-zaggy kinda path, which was certainly my, um, my situation. Um, 17:17 I, I was in a technology leadership role for decades, and I did okay in it. I d- I think I did pretty well, but it didn't really light me up, to be honest. 17:28 I found out that it wasn't so much the technology that I, got me excited. It was leading change, but it was really the, the aspect of leading change around people and really more about the change in people. 17:40 So coaching is what really got me to make a move away from that safe career. You know, once you get used to a profitable career choice- Right... 17:52 um, it's hard to walk away from that, even though that might not be, you know, your best spot- Well-... uh, for, for someone... I'd like to speak to the words you raised of safe. Yeah. Because there is no more safety. 18:08 And safe- That's true... the safety is an illusion we create for ourselves. But in many ways, and certainly with my own transition to owning a business- 18:20 It was a very conscious decision not to put my career in anybody else's hands again. Yeah. And so I- Yep... 18:28 think that, you know, we as human beings, uh, we tend to overestimate risk and, uh, we tend to underestimate our capacity to handle difficulty. 18:41 So if you know that going in, uh, and you look at things as they are, not as we wish they would be, you realize that- Mm-hmm... that perceived safety of the corporate role is just that. It's, it's perceived. 18:54 And certainly in the last 18 months to two years, that's become abundantly clear. Oh, man, yeah. But it's, it's always been that way, but yet it's become more clear to everyone. 19:06 I've talked to a number of people who have had change thrust upon them, and to a certain degree, a lot of these changes were, uh, external because of the pandemic and companies- Sure... needing to reshift. 19:19 But a lot, a number of them weren't. You know, they were completely caught off guard- Hmm... and found that the position had been res- rechanged, or all of a sudden they were out. 19:29 And I love th- the clarification of perception, and that was w- was what I was really trying to drive at. That was my perception at the time. But yes, that, uh, that was a perception. 19:41 That is a perception of safety, and that's no longer true. You know, 19:45 uh, uh, being a little older, I grew up in a time when a lot of my parents' friends, my parents were in positions where they would have a position with an employer that would last their entire lifetime. Right. 19:57 That's very rare now. [laughs] Not only is it rare, but it's actually undesirable. So we know that now there is a bias against people who have stayed- Yeah... 20:09 with the same organization for whatever the recruiter thinks is too long, whatever that is. We also know that, um, today's graduates are gonna probably have four different jobs before their 30th birthday. Oh, yeah. 20:26 So true. So sad. So if we know that and we prepare ourselves for that, and we begin to think about our careers differently, then it actually can be an adventure, and you can look at your career- Hmm... more as 20:41 what skill set do I wanna develop next, or who do I wanna work with next, or what type of work and what kind of industry am I curious about? And it's really hard to give up that, um, stability that we all naturally want. 20:58 A- and at the same time, um, by looking at it as it is rather than as we might wish it would be, we're really- Yes... 21:07 becoming far more resilient and agile in a job market that's gonna change whether we want it to or not. Yeah. And, and sort of the long arc of, of a career, um, I, I love the framing. 21:21 I, I usually phrase it this way, the world as it is versus the world as I'd like it that, to be. Right. 21:27 But, um, but this whole idea of passivity also translates into how you approach your career just, eh, from a generic standpoint starting out. Are you gonna, are you gonna just wait for things to come to you? 21:39 You know, why haven't I been promoted? Why aren't I moving, things moving faster? Rather than owning it and having a vision, the direction you wanna to go in, where you wanna work, what, what do you wanna do? 21:52 Is it serving you? Do you need to make a shift? All those things are, are active and proactive versus the passivity of sitting back, and that can happen over a long arc. You know? For sure. It, in my case, 22:05 good things were happening frequently enough, not that bad things didn't happen, but frequently enough that I said, "Um, I'm just gonna hang with this." 22:12 But I wasn't being proactive about really digging into what really was best for me, wh- what really connected strongly with my gifts. I was more opportunistic. I was the same way. Um, in my view. 22:25 And I think that came out of, you know, the environment in which we grew up in, where that was just what was expected. Be grateful. You have a good job. Hmm. You're getting promotions or what have you. Yeah. Yep. 22:36 And it didn't occur to me for a long time, I, I didn't realize for a long time that I had as much control as I did over my career, and then it took me a few more years to decide to exercise that control. Yeah. Yeah. 22:54 Totally. So let's talk about lessons learned, kind of in a broad sense, both from your career, but also from the perspective of dealing with your clients. Do you see 23:08 certain trends in interacting with your clients that come up often that you tend to address in this similar way with your clients that may not be visible to them? 23:21 I mean, we've, we've touched on some of these obviously, but I'm kind of pivoting a little bit here and trying to pull out some lessons learned that we might be able to share with the listeners. Absolutely. 23:32 There's a few things that come to mind, Joe. Uh, the first is that we need to have fluency in the language of us, in how we wanna talk about ourselves and what we bring to the table, and we need to practice that. 23:49 So that is one theme. No matter who I'm working with, even if they are a very confident, accomplished person, they have probably not practiced 24:02 speaking about themselves and their high-point achievements in a way that make their skills obvious. 24:09 In fact, often I'll find that the more accomplished the person, the less practiced they are and the more assumptions they make that their job title or where they went to school or certain achievements should say everything that needs to be said about them. 24:24 Well, that's not true. Mm-hmm. Not by a long shot. A good hiring manager today wants to be able to hear you articulate what you offer, not so they have to guess at it. 24:38 So it, it's really common, especially for people who are very accomplished and they've achieved a great deal in their career, that they, they take it for granted that people will understand from a job title or from, uh, you know, their stature, what have you- Mm-hmm... 24:54 that, that we know what their skills are. 24:57 But that's actually not the case, and the best way to present ourselves, especially if we're looking, uh, for a new role, is to have some high-point stories that illustrate our skills. 25:09 'Cause hiring managers don't wanna have to do the work. They want you to do the work for them. They want you to be able to tell them why you're the solution to their problem, and to be able to do that very clearly 25:24 demonstrates that you understand the role and what it's gonna take. And that really makes the difference between a candidate who gets the offer and the, the one who doesn't, at any level. Hm. 25:38 It's that understanding- Yeah... 25:40 what is this role all about, which means doing your research, which means talking to people in the company, which means knowing what the organization's challenges are, what that department's challenges are. 25:53 Frequently I'll suggest to clients that in the interview they ask a question like, "What will success look like in the first three to six months?" And another great question is, "What's keeping you up at night?" Mm-hmm. 26:12 Yeah. Now, the- is that- that's typically, like, "What's keeping you up at night," "Success look like," are those questions that would be in second-round, third-round interviews- Yes... 26:22 where you're talking to the hiring manager? Yes, because you're talking to the hiring manager. Yeah. You already know you're qualified for the job, and now you have to establish yourself as the best fit for the job. 26:36 And the thing I like about those kinds of questions, and also the technique of pivoting in your answer, and I'll get back to that in a minute, the thing I like about these questions is they stimulate conversation. 26:50 The candidate who's gonna get the job is the candidate who builds rapport and has an easy communication with the person they're talking to. Yeah. 26:59 If you've gotten the interview, you're already meet the basic, uh, qualifications for the job, and now your job is to show you understand what it's gonna take, and you're already thinking about it and seeing yourself in the role. 27:13 So you might say a pivot might be if I asked you a question like, um, you know, "Tell, tell me about a time when you had to face some barriers to taking an action that you knew was the right thing to do." Right? 27:31 That might be a typical high-level- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... uh, question that you would get for a senior role. You know, can you stand up to the naysayers? Right. 27:40 And not only do you want a story for that, which is really important to talk about when you've done that before, but you also wanna be able to pivot from that and say, "I'm really curious. 27:54 Tell me about who the naysayers are here. Not by name, of course, but what might be the common reasons why we might get pushback on, or why you might get pushback on what your objectives are?" Uh, boy. 28:08 And now you get the hiring manager talking. Yes. And, uh, having been on both sides of the fence and also, uh, this crosses over into questions I often get in a coaching context, 28:22 you're not into round two or three unless you've gotten past the tick boxes. Do they have all- Right... the basic requirements? 28:29 And I think people go into round two and three trying to underscore and highlight that they are meeting those tick boxes. It, it's, it's like- Right... 28:37 a sales thing where, you know, you often have to describe to people that sales aren't closed based upon this part, your head. They're closed based upon this part, your heart. 28:53 They're closed based upon that connection that you make and then, and this is where it crosses over into sort of the coaching context for me, is I often have conversations with people saying, 29:04 "I just, I have such a terrible time with my boss." I say, "Well, tell me about your conversations with your boss." 29:10 And they're like, "Well, you know, I go in there and they don't, they're not paying attention to what I'm doing, and they don't seem to care." And I say, and I'll say, "Have you put yourself in your boss's position? 29:22 What do they need from you? How can you make their life easier? Why are you there?" 29:26 [laughs] And it's understandable that people, they want feedback, they want to feel like their bosses are engaged, but you, you don't have a positive relationship where you can have a dialogue and influence with your boss or a senior executive, let's say, for example, 29:42 unless you've built a relationship where you have delivered for them and for the company. That's right. It... 29:49 And so I like this pivot point, uh, advice you're giving because it demonstrates that you are putting yourself in the position that you will be in, and that is serving your boss and the company. Sorry. 30:04 It's not gonna go well for you, even if you get the position, unless you get that. 30:08 There is a subconscious thing that goes on, I think, as part of the sales process of yourself, but it's also the hiring manager saying to himself, "Do I want to deal with this person on a daily basis?" 30:19 [laughs] Right, and that's the value of the pivot. Yeah. And you can do this with, this pivot with all kinds of questions. 30:27 Any question you get, you could say, "Tell me about how that works here," or, "What's been your experience with that?" 30:33 And the value of that approach is- You are establishing a relationship rather than just answering questions Right. And they're getting to see you in the light of being their person, right? And asking thoughtful- Yeah... 30:48 questions and showing your thought process. Yeah, and, you know, the other thing too is the whole authentic situation, right? For sure. 30:59 Is the person being authentic with you, or are they just giving you the pat answer back? Is there any substance? Right. And I think when you ask these thoughtful questions, you see the substance. 31:09 Otherwise, it's just like a talking point. [laughs] That's right. That's right, and you really can't fake- No... the exchange. No. 31:20 I, I think the other part too, and, and you touched on it earlier, is this a company I wanna work for? Is this a person I wanna work for? 31:28 And so you're also, by asking these questions, you're getting a sense, is this a situation I wanna be in? And it takes a lot of courage, 31:37 but it's a smart thing to do, to go into an interview, even if you build your hopes up for that position, and say, "Oh, I don't think so. Even if they offer me this job, I'm seeing things. 31:48 I don't like the culture," or, "I'm not seeing myself in this role." Well, and I think you're absolutely right, Joe, and, and we can also help preclude those situations by doing the networking ahead of time- Yeah... 32:02 talking with people who already work there, asking them, "Hey, I'm curious, what do you like best about the organization, and what do you wish you knew before you started working there?" We can ask 32:15 for all kinds of insight when it is the informational interview. I'm doing my research. This is what I advise my clients all the time, is they, don't wait until you're desperate to find a job. 32:30 You should be working on your career resilience, at least once a year reaching out to contacts, looking at other organizations, asking yourself, "Is this situation I'm in healthy right now? 32:48 Do I have continued opportunities to grow?" Mm-hmm. And in that process, reaching out to people and saying, "Who else is doing exciting work out there that I might wanna be a part of?" 32:58 It's all research, and if you approach it as research in these networking conversations, I could say to you, Joe, "Hey, you worked for that company for a number of years. 33:08 What do you think somebody coming into the company should know?" Or, "I see you worked with that particular hiring manager. What was your experience with that person," or, "What's that person's reputation?" 33:20 Now, you always have to take that with a grain of salt- Sure... but it's good information to start with, and there's also reviews and feedback you can find on the internet. 33:31 Now, nobody goes on the internet or a, a board like glassdoor.com- Yeah... to s- you know, say great stuff. Right. Rarely. Rarely. 33:40 But repeated negative things that have the same theme, we can save ourselves a lot of trouble by not even looking at those organizations. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So 33:55 can we go back and summarize some of these points, these pieces of advice? So if I were to put together what I think somebody who's looking at a career transition should be doing, it follows a very predictable pattern. 34:08 You should really start with what's in your control and know yourself. 34:12 Have a very clear idea of what skills, not just what you are good at, but what you actually enjoy, 'cause many of us are good at things we don't particularly like. Mm-hmm. So what are you good at? What do you enjoy? 34:25 What do you wanna be doing on a daily basis? And then getting very clear, targeting employers that hire people to do those things. 34:33 And then the process of doing the research, talking to people who are already with that company. That actually is a great foundation for applying. 34:44 We never want to apply for a job by just clicking the button on a job board. You want somebody on the other end to be expecting your application. Ideally, you want somebody to be referring you. Mm-hmm. 34:57 And that means putting some time into building relationships. It doesn't take a long time, but it takes some intention, and LinkedIn is a great resource for- Yeah... meeting those people. 35:10 And then in the interview process, really being your authentic self and making it a two-way conversation so that you can find out if that's the job you want, if that's the person you wanna be reporting to, and if that's the team you'd like to be a part of. 35:29 Yeah. That's great. Great summary. I don't think I could've done that off the top of my head. [laughs] But I guess you've been doing it for a while. Yeah, I apologize if... 35:39 Well, yeah, I know I was bouncing around a little bit there- No, no, it was great... but, um- I j- I just did it for my own purposes and, and for the audience. 35:46 Let me ask you this canned question you probably are expecting. So if you were to give yourself advice as your 25-year-old self, from- Hmm... 35:55 your own personal point of view, obviously you love what you do, and you're in the right spot, and you're doing great at it, but thinking back to when you started out, what would you say to yourself? 36:06 Now, this could obviously be different than what you just summarized for us. So if I think about what I would say to my 25-year-old self, I would say, "Be bold." Ah, I love that. 36:18 And I think, you know, just to come back to where we started, I was too timid. I didn't have enough confidence in my own abilities, despite the fact that I routinely got exemplary re- performance reviews. 36:33 I would say that I 36:36 could make a move- Even if it felt uncomfortable or a stretch, and the more practice I got with that stretch, I think the more rewarding my roles might have been over the years, uh, because another skill is the stretch. 36:52 Mm. And I wish I had done a little bit more of that. Of course, that's 20/20. Sure. But I will also say this, 37:01 that whatever decision you make, you can make it the right decision, and I think that I did the very best that I could with the information that I had at the time, and I give myself a lot of credit for that too. 37:15 That's awesome. That's awesome. Sarah, how can people reach you? I'm sure people who are still listening are, are wondering, "Ah, I need to talk to Sarah," so what's the best way for them to get ahold of you? Absolutely. 37:30 Well, the best way is my email, which is Sarah, S-A-R-A-H, @avarahcareers, and I'll spell that A-V-A-R-A-H careers, C-A-R-E-E-R-S,.com. Email me directly. 37:48 I'd love to hear from you. You can also check out my website at avarahcareers.com, and I'd love it if you'll follow me on LinkedIn. Uh, there I am Sarah, with an H, S-A-R-A-H, B as in boy, Andrus, A-N-D-R-U-S. 38:05 That's awesome. I will, of course, put these references in the show notes to make it a little bit easier on you guys. And boy, Sarah, it's been a pleasure speaking with you. 38:16 I wish I had talked to you when I was 25 years old. Well, thank you for the opportunity, Joe. It's been a pleasure and a fun conversation. I appreciate it. 38:24 Okay, guys, make sure you check out Sarah's site, and do reach out to her if you want to avail yourself of her services. 38:32 And I would also say she does have some TEDx talks up there, so you might wanna check that out as well. Hey, thanks for joining me today on Titans of Transition. I hope you enjoyed the episode. 38:45 Please check the show notes for additional information. Also, please like and subscribe to this channel.
