Transcript 0:00 Oh my gosh, personal wiring is so important to success in your career and in your life, and wow. I mean, I had to learn this through the school of hard knocks, and I came across an assessment tool. 0:16 There's tons of different personality assessment tools, but I came across one decades ago, 0:22 um, called the Kolbe Index, and, uh, it's so valuable to my coaching, to me personally, that I just thought I had to have someone from Kolbe come on. 0:34 And so I'm just so blessed to have Amy Brusky, president of Kolbe Corp, with us today to help us unpack that. But, Amy, listen, there's, there's so many different assessment tools out there. Mm-hmm. 0:47 I have my view of why I like Kolbe so much. 0:49 There are other great ones of course, but can you, uh, take just a minute and, and tell us why this whole personal wiring thing is so important and, and why, why Kolbe versus other assessment tools? Sure. Well, I... 1:04 Just like you, I've been kind of an assessment junkie my whole career too, but, uh, Kolbe measures something that is so unique, which is how you naturally strive, solve problems, get things done, make decisions. 1:18 So to put it in context, there are these three different dimensions of the mind, and to simplify it, it's just the thinking, the feeling, and the doing. 1:27 And listen, ancient philosophers wrote about this, so this is not something that Kolbe made up. So the more formal names are the cognitive, the affective, and the conative. 1:36 Well, we all know that cognitive is about how smart you are, what you're capable of doing. So what you can do, right? And there's a lot of focuses on that. Yeah. 1:46 Uh, we all went to school and had to take tests and regurgitate information, but it's one piece of the puzzle. And, you know, often I'll ask, like, "Why are some people more productive than others?" 1:55 Almost never does anybody say, "Because they're the smartest person in the room," right? [laughs] So it is one, one dimension of the mind. 2:02 It's important for you to work with people that are capable and all those things, but it's one piece. The second, that affective or what we call the feeling part of the mind, is what do you prefer? What do you like? Hmm. 2:13 What motivates you? And all the personality-type tests fall into that as well. 2:19 So assessments like Myers-Briggs and DiSC, Predictive Index, um, CliftonStrengths, all of those that w- are really common in the workplace are good at saying, what do you care enough about to take action on? 2:32 What do you, what do you want? Hmm. What do you prefer? And I find those really useful once you're in a team for understanding some of the team dynamics and team members. 2:41 But unfortunately, what you want to do is not predictive of long-term success. Hmm. So just because you value and you want to be, let's say, more organized- [laughs]... 2:50 does not necessarily mean- Certainly true for me [laughs] not so much... that you're, that, that you're gonna do things in this really structured and organized way, right? So that is another piece of the puzzle. 3:01 But what we really find is this missing link is the how do you naturally execute? Hmm. This doing part of the mind is called the conative for more formally. 3:10 Again, ancient philosophers wrote about it, but the Kolbe assessment is the only tool where Kathy Kolbe figured out the way to say, "Can we measure how people naturally get things done?" 3:22 So how you're hardwired is that we have done a lot of test, retest research, and we find that this is a really stable part of the mind. It does not really change over time. 3:33 So you are the same person that you were when you were five years old, you know, 25 years old, whatever it might be, as far as your most instinctive and natural way- Uh-huh... 3:44 of getting things done, and there's a big if, if totally free to be yourself. Oh. 3:50 You know, that's really interesting, and, and you said something, I just wanna jump in and say, you know, let's take Myers-Briggs as an example, one of those affective, uh, preference-based tools. 4:00 I've taken that several times, and I, I bounce between, like, an INTJ and a ENTJ, and, you know, everybody makes such a big... People talk about being introvert versus extrovert, and that's a pretty big shift. 4:13 And I don't know. Is it... So the things that are happening in your environment can cause you to shift your, your score on those affective kind of tools versus- Mm-hmm... 4:24 Kolbe that kind of stays consistent- Sure, yeah... in terms of how you wanna take action. 4:29 Yeah, personality tests, I know we actually worked with the distributor of the Myers-Briggs many years ago, and they said their test, retest reliability is in the 45 to 50%- Ooh... 4:40 range, meaning that there are some changes, and because of that, they'll encourage people to do a retake. We really, once you get a Kolbe score, we don't need to do a retake 'cause we find it's stable. 4:51 So personality absolutely is a little bit driven by environment. Um, there's, there are definitely some hardcore hardwired things about our personality. That's where we get into the nature versus nurture- Hmm... 5:03 discussion that people have. Um, whereas the conative is stable, and it is really predictive of how you're gonna act, especially when you don't have any learned behavior to solve problems. 5:14 It's kind of interesting during the pandemic we really saw this play out where people were saying, "Well, I've never been in this position before. 5:21 I, I don't know what to do with my company employees for me individually." Hmm. People really revert back to their natural, instinctive- Hmm... way of executing when they're in a position like that. 5:34 So when, when they shifted into remote working modes, some of the struggle was what? Learned behavior versus innate? Mm-hmm. Going back and forth and, and then having to settle into something- Yeah... 5:49 or rediscover maybe their innate. Uh, y- the terminology back when I, I originally got, uh, my certification, it was a long time ago, was MO. I don't know if you still use that, modus operandi. Yeah, absolutely. 6:03 An MO is modus operandi, and that is how you... It's kind of this combination of your strengths when free to be yourself and getting things done. Yeah, so we all have an MO. By the way, guess who else uses MO? 6:15 Law enforcement- [laughs]... uses MO when they're talking about a criminal. Yeah, that's true. What's fascinating is- Yeah... what they're saying is, if we can see a pattern of behavior- Mm-hmm... 6:27 then maybe we can stay one step ahead. Mm-hmm. Well, we all have a pattern of behavior that is absolutely natural to us, um, hopefully to do good, right, and not evil. Uh, so that it is our MO. 6:39 It's this, it's this drive that we have to do things. 6:42 So, uh, help me with this 'cause I- I, in my coaching, I often discover people who are in a position, they've gained some skills, they, they have some knowledge, the other parts of the mind, right? Um, 6:56 but after a period of time, they just don't... It's not working for 'em. I don't know how to put it. It's, they get their energy drained. They feel like they're pushing a rock up a hill. Wow. 7:06 And they start to ask themselves questions, often, you know, early in their career, but most often s- maybe middle of their career they're starting to wonder, uh, had- did they pick the right career. 7:17 And I often say, "Well, you could probably do almost any job. It's just a matter how you approach it." And I'll just give you one personal example. I hated doing budgeting. [laughs] You know? 7:29 I'm not real strong in that part, and we can maybe break out the four different areas. Um, so 7:36 it was always such a huge lift for me as an IT executive, which is really important to do budgeting, um, to get through the budgeting process. 7:44 I know many of the people who worked for me will be, like, laughing right now because they know how true this is. Um, so I had to sort of fool myself into, to doing budgeting every year, Amy. I had to- Yeah... 7:56 make a game out of, like, "How can I do this in a new and completely different way?" [laughs] Right. Uh, and that, that would give me enough of a, a, a running start 8:07 that I would be able to carry myself through and deliver in the form that the organization needed. But getting started out of my natural MO was just huge lift for me. Is that kind of the right way of looking at this? 8:20 Yeah. I... Boy, I love that example because it's something that you were so capable of doing. It really didn't require a lot of your expertise 'cause you had done it for so long. Mm-hmm. 8:31 And people feel so guilty about the things they procrastinate, and what they don't realize is we procrastinate the things that really aren't as natural for you. That didn't use your strengths. 8:41 And so over time in your career, one of two things happens: either you get yourself in a position where a good t- uh, chunk of the time you're working against your natural strengths. Mm-hmm. 8:51 So in the beginning, you can sustain that. Over time, that's really hard. Now, if budgeting-type activities had been a big majority of what you did- Right... in your role, you would have truly burned out. 9:03 But once a year, you did exactly what we coach people to do, is you used your own strengths to make it this kind of new and different or impossible- Mm-hmm... 9:13 impossible deadline, whatever it might be, to get things done. That worked for you. For other people, they might have had to do a little bit every day for two weeks and spread it out. For you, a sprint. Yeah. 9:25 You know, make it urgent, do it as a sprint worked. 9:28 And so what a great example of how people feel like they don't understand why they're at a point in their career where they're just burned out or not understanding why they just can't get some basic stuff done, and this explains a lot of that. 9:44 Yeah. And, and, and it could be, you know, a, a person who has a completely different wiring. And this is the, this is the key thing. You need to understand the way you are made and you're wired- Right... 9:56 in order to go with it rather than going against it. Or don't go against your own grain, so to speak. Oh. So, uh, I had other people... Actually, this is a, uh, I'll continue the example. 10:07 Uh, I had a great guy working for me who was very, um, into gathering facts and details and, and doing all that heavy lifting, which was tiresome to me. 10:20 Um, and I realized I could depend upon him to do that part of the job, and it would be done on time, but it would be done a whole lot better. And- Okay... it was a real threat at first to me. 10:35 Like, I think I have to do this. But really, and as a leader, I, I realized, hey, I'm, I'm responsible for, for getting it done and getting it done well. 10:46 The best way I can do that is to pick or pick a member of my team who excels in that area and, and give it to them. Now, he had the opposite situation from me. I love to take quick action. 10:58 For me, a couple data points to validate my intuition, and I'm, I'm off and running. Yeah. For him, it was like, wait a minute. There's huge risk here. We need to do more fact-finding. We need to gather more data. 11:13 We need to make sure we get this right or it could be bad. And I used to always view that as y- you know, you're pushing back against me. But really, it complemented me so well. And so I... 11:24 That's one of the other powerful things I think about Kolbe is, uh, the team uses of Kolbe and the tools you have along those lines. Yeah. 11:34 And one of the things you said was, we need to release the need to be great at everything. So what, in the beginning what you were saying is, "Ah, I felt like I should be doing this. I can." 11:44 And so we all need to kind of let that go and realize that there's this multiplier effect that we get when we are working with other people with just the right strengths. 11:56 And in this case, you needed someone who complemented your strengths, who was really different than you were. That means you might drive each other crazy, right? The more different- Mm-hmm... 12:04 that people approach problem-solving Sometimes that's frustrating when we don't understand it. 12:10 So as long as we can understand that person's strengths and value those, then you can get really strategic about when do you need to collaborate with and with whom, right? Mm-hmm. 12:20 Then all of a sudden that becomes really clear. We get things done faster, easier. It becomes, um, easier to, uh, let go of some basic tasks. And it's not massive changes that helps us reduce our stress. 12:34 It is, like, a couple of different tasks here or there that can greatly change the way you feel about your job and how much energy you have- Mm-hmm... available to do the stuff that really matters. 12:45 So what a great example of people stumble into that over time- Yeah... without having the tools. We just want it to be easier for people to understand this about themselves. 12:55 Stop trying to push that rock uphill, like you said. Mm-hmm. Quit trying to change yourself, and then understand how cl- how and when to collaborate. 13:03 'Cause sometimes you need to work independently towards shared goals, and sometimes together. Just depends on- Yeah... what you got. Right. 13:11 And, and y- you alluded to this a little bit earlier, that you said if you're spending majority of your time in an area that's not your strength, if that's a key expectation for you in your job role, then you might be thinking at that point maybe considering doing something different. 13:27 I r- I remember you also had sort of a job fit assessment. You have, like, a Kolbe A index, Kolbe B, and a Kolbe C, I think. Um, can you, can you tell us a little bit about that? 13:39 'Cause I think those are really powerful, and, and other instruments have, or other assessments have similar kinds of tools, but, um, can you talk a little bit about that, how those things work together? Sure. 13:51 So it's important to go beyond just getting clarity around your strengths. So that's what our Kolbe A measures, is, is really who are you if free to be yourself. 13:58 But are you free to be yourself is the next question, and how often. So we have a second assessment called the Kolbe B that is your view of how you're having to operate in your current role. 14:11 It really is a snapshot in time, so sometimes that one needs to be retaken as your job changes or that kinda thing. 14:18 Comparing who you are to how you feel you need to act gives you a real idea of the kinds of tasks that are causing the most stress and, and what can we do about it. So we are not gonna tell you change who you are. 14:29 We're just gonna say, "Let's figure out a way to get these same things done in a different way." The Kolbe C now gives it even more, um, kind of this 360 view of everything. 14:40 That is someone else's view of what does success look like in the role. So often it's a direct supervisor- Exactly... 14:46 but it can be a peer or a team member or someone else in the organization with any kind of impact on, on the, the role itself and success in the role. 14:56 And so they say, "Here's what I think the, how the job needs to be done and the kinds of actions that need to be taken." Then if you get all three of those together- Mm... 15:05 we can really predict when someone might have a high level of stress in their job and do some great coaching around it. 'Cause the leader needs a lot of help in this area. I think human nature is such... 15:18 We do this to our kids, too, by the way. Mm. Human nature is such that we think, "Hey, this worked for me. I was successful doing it this way. Let me help you and coach you to do it the way I would do it." 15:29 So it comes from a great place, but sometimes is really the worst thing that we can be doing. Why? [laughs] So, so having a clear concept of who you are, A. Yep. 15:41 Getting captured what you believe your role requirements are or what those attributes that are ideal for the role, and then getting the 360, probably your supervisor, but it could be someone else. Yeah. 15:54 And then you can look at any agreements or dis- dissonance between those points of view and work them out. Wow. And that's where I think having, um, a common language with an instrument really helps, because 16:10 we all approach these things with these innate pre- well, preferences. I was gonna use the language preferences, but- Mm... 16:18 MOs for how you would approach the job or what you think is, is really important for, for the role. And it could be that both you and your supervisor or that person that you've called upon to do the C, um, 16:34 isn't quite getting it right either, you know? 16:36 So it just, it's a richer conversation about what's really needed for the organization for that role to be successful, and then you can start looking at adjustments in behaviors, strategies around covering all the bases, or 16:53 maybe re-looking at the role itself. 16:55 We all have that problem, I think, as, as leaders and as managers, where we've been successful, and you just touched on this, and we kind of expect that to be successful someone else has to do the job the way we would do it. 17:09 And if you don't have signals, if you don't have things coming to you that look like that, behaviors or, you know, work product that look like the way you were doing it, you're thinking, "That person doesn't get it." 17:22 Right. They're not doing it, you know? And they could actually be fulfilling the job function, but just doing it in a different way. Sure. 17:29 I think one of the things we need to do, uh, with all leaders is help them start focusing on the end result. Mm. 17:35 What does quality output look like, whatever it might be, and, and keep being very clear about describing that to people. We n- what date is it by? What does quality look like? All that. 17:46 And then start giving some freedom to get there in a way that's most natural for every individual. 17:53 Um, because yeah, imposing methodology on people, unless you're running a nuclear power plant, we do say there probably is a right way to do things if you're, the type of business you're in is a lot of- Yeah... 18:05 uh, you know, process. So there's an exception. For most of our businesses, that is not the case. Mm-hmm. Leaders need to really step back and say, "What does excellence look like in this job?" 18:17 And then be open to people doing it in different ways. And then here's the magic of what happens. When people are aligned in their job, it's kind of, um, you know, sports analogies, you call it being in the zone. Mm. 18:31 Or people's state- [laughs]... flow, where it is, at the end of the day you might be kinda physically tired, but you are jazzed 'cause you got to do stuff all day long that fits who you are. 18:42 Now you have an employee that is fully engaged, really committed, and they're gonna stick around. And so, I- it is an expensive proposition to have turnover. 18:52 We need to do a better job of getting the right people in the right seats, but then once you have 'em, figure out how you can get them to really operate a way that's natural for them. It's in everyone's best interest. 19:03 You're gonna get better results. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. You said sports and it, you brought to mind, wasn't Kathy a, a consultant to a sports team in Phoenix, right? Yes. I don't know if it was anywhere near... 19:14 Was it the Suns- Yep... or? It was the Phoenix Suns basketball team. Yeah. Our, our- How did that work? I mean, you, talking about- Yeah... 19:22 pe- you know, we often talk about, I mean, I've worked in high technology and biotech and pharma for decades and, you know, engineers and scientists are similar because they both were pretty allergic to the whole idea of anything like, like what we're talking about today. 19:36 Right. [laughs] So I'm just wondering, I mean s- I think about sports guys, you know, people, athletes also might be a little bit hesitant to listen to these concepts. Yeah. So it's interesting. I mean, yes and no. 19:48 I think a- athletes are sometimes willing to dabble- Mm. That's true... if there's anything that they think will make their performance better. Yeah. My husband actually used to be a professional baseball player. 19:57 Oh, cool. So we, yeah, we met in college, and so early in his career, uh, in the minor leagues, you know, Kathy had made sure that he took the Kolbe Index too. 20:06 Uh, and w- he, it's fascinating how the difference between when he was a pitcher as a starting pitcher versus- Right... a bullpen pitcher requires some real different, um, ways of getting things done. 20:20 So, you know, when you're in the bullpen, you have no idea- Mm... if you're pitching that day. Yeah. Or even in the next five, 10 minutes. 20:26 And so you, you just always need to be ready, and naturally kind of accommodate change. As a starting pitcher, you know, every five days you are gonna be starting. You can get a little bit more of a routine. 20:38 And I've seen when they take someone who's a starting pitcher, and during the playoffs in World Series they'll put them in the bullpen and bring 'em in, oftentimes those guys just don't do as well, and it's the number one pitcher, but you're taking them out of their game. 20:51 So for the NBA, and I lo- I love basketball, we were helping them with their draft picks, and we actually ended up helping them choose a player called Dan Majerle, who ended up becoming a really great player. 21:04 Went to many all-star, uh, teams and stuff. But when he got picked, the fans booed. They- [laughs] And you can imagine Kathy was like, "Oh my gosh, what have we done?" 21:14 'Cause they didn't pick the most obvious guy who should have been their choice. She talked to the coach and the team and said, "What are you missing? Where are your holes? Let's talk about what you have." Mm. 21:26 Looked at the strengths they already had on board, and realized they needed a guy who really, when it's, when the play's not working, can make it up, or when it's down to the buzzer, is gonna be kinda that clutch player. 21:38 And he ended up being that player for them. 21:41 But it was fascinating to see the difference between the n- the owners and the coaches saying, "Yes, we wanna use this," and then do you have a coach who's willing to let everyone be themselves? Mm-hmm. 21:53 And that's where the rub kinda started coming in, where the coach kinda wanted every player to act in the same way, and you have challenges when that happens. So we learned a lot. 22:04 It's, you know, it's the same everywhere, whether you're in a classroom, whether you're in professional sports, whether you're in an office environment, all those human dynamics come into play, and the bias, the biases come out of there is one best way to execute. 22:19 Mm. Yes. So how did you get to, to the position, how did you come to Kolbe? I mean, what was, what was your career path, and how did you find it? 22:30 So my career, um, path, [laughs] I'm one of these reformed people who, uh, when I took the Kolbe Index, it was life-changing for me. 22:39 So I had been on a path where I had taken, uh, five promotions in five years, had really moved up in an organization. 22:47 I felt like on the outside I was incredibly successful, and that is when Kathy Kolbe said to me, "How do you define success?" And I said, "Well, I, I think I am successful. 22:59 Success is you, you know, you go to school, you get skills, you, you start working your way up the corporate ladder." Um, you know, my dad had been a banker. I had seen a certain traditional path. 23:10 And she said, "Well, you know, success to me is the freedom to be yourself." And I thought, "I don't even understand that." Like, it just was so foreign to me to think of freedom to be myself. 23:22 But as I saw my Kolbe result, I realized I was completely miserable. I was so miserable in my job, and I kept getting promoted based on what I actually didn't do [laughs] naturally. 23:34 So it's kinda like positive reinforcement, you know, for this. Mm-hmm. I was working against my grain, and people are saying, "That's great. We want more of that." 23:42 And so I kept putting myself in a position, um, where ultimately I don't know how to, I could sustain that. But that one clarity for my strengths changed everything for me. I ended up quitting my job. 23:56 I ended up moving back to Arizona where I live. 23:59 And because I had been an expert in sales training, I used to train sales trainers, Kathy had said to me, "Hey, why don't you just come as a consultant and, um, you know, train, train some of our salespeople for us?" 24:11 Because of course my husband was still playing baseball at the time- [laughs]... so we had to meet up on weekends. We didn't have kids yet. It, so I said, "That'll be great. 24:18 Like, I've got a little flexibility to do this." Yeah. And, um, I fell in love immediately because I really, I love human behavior and psychology. I actually wanted to-... 24:29 be a psych major in college, but I thought, "Well, I don't wanna be a therapist. What am I gonna do with a psych degree?" And so it's the perfect marriage of business, 'cause I was- Mm-hmm... 24:38 I studied business and human behavior together. So, um, I was all in, and every year Cathy and I would say, "Let's revisit. Is this still working?" 'Cause I never wanted it to be this guarantee. 24:51 You know, everybody every year should kinda recommit to what they're doing. Um, so I, I... 24:57 It's been this ideal world, but I got here by being in the exact same position that a lot of the people who I'm coaching are in right now. Mm-hmm. I, I love that statement she made, again, say, about defining success. 25:13 So Cathy's definition of success is the freedom to be yourself. Wow. And I thought that was just bizarre, and that... But the more you think about it, you need some freedom to be you in all parts of the mind, right? 25:27 Yeah. But to stop working against what's natural for you, and instead capitalize on the strengths that you already have. So there's this fun activity for those of you listening to this. 25:40 When you get a chance, try, um, a handwriting exercise, you may have seen this before, where you print, make sure it's printing, not cursive. You print your first and last name, and then you change hands. 25:51 So if you're right-handed, left-handed, and you print your first and last name again. And you can imagine kind of how it goes. 25:58 But you know you're not gonna get a great result, but what's surprising is how long it takes and how much focus and mental energy it takes to work against something that is so innate to you. Mm-hmm. 26:09 And that's kinda what it feels like, you know, over time if you're in a role where you, y- you're not working with your strengths. So there really, we need to let go of this whole you can do it all. Of course you can. 26:23 You are capable of solving problems in any which way that Kolbe, the Kolbe Index could measure getting things done. But long term, is that a good solution for you? Is that really what you wanna do? 26:35 Because you will be depleted, drained, and not have any energy left for the things that you, all the other things you wanna do and love in your life too. Yeah. You know? Wow, that's powerful. 26:46 Can we, can we do some comparisons here? Sure. I wanted to, to just sh- show my index, and we can talk about it a little bit and, and you can- Love that... if you feel comfortable, you could share yours. 26:58 I, I don't know if that's showing. Oh, yeah. So mine's, yeah, mine's back here. Mine is really similar, so they're not gonna be that different. Here's me. Oh, yeah. We're very similar in the pattern. Yeah. 27:08 This is an older, older chart that I have than yours, but, but- Which is unusual, but um- Can you talk about the four different areas a little bit? Sure. And we can sort of- Yeah... yeah, go there. 27:19 So quick- yeah, I'll give you just a quick run- rundown. There's basically four continuums of behavior. Again, to reiterate, no good or bad, right or wrong results. This first one is this, uh, red line, is fact finder. 27:33 It's what you do with information, how you gather information, how you share information, and it's this continuum from someone who is going to be bottom line and simplify naturally down to someone who is very detailed and thorough. 27:46 You gave us a great example of how budgeting- Budgeting... was not hard for you. Yeah. Because if you hold yours up again, is it a- Yeah, sure... three or a, what is it again? It's a three. It's a, uh, it's a three. 27:58 Three. Yeah. So you do your best work when you can s- know a little bit about a lot of different things. This, the podcasting is so perfect for you, especially if you have this wide variety of, of people that are on. 28:11 Yeah. And so other people have a need to go in depth and be an expert in one area and just really go, go deeper, and they, just like the person that you said was, was great at that. Mm-hmm. 28:23 My brother David is an eight in fact finder, and I'm a three. Yeah. I can count on him not to guess. 28:28 When I ask him a question, he won't speculate, he won't guess unless he really has justification and facts to back it up, he won't jump in. Makes him great at finances, makes him a great lawyer. Yeah. 28:39 And you, it's hard to press him, I imagine, into action quickly or get a commitment from him on anything until he has time to go back and gather information, think about it- Yeah... and then he can commit. 28:54 So a stress point for, that I had to learn with dealing with people like that is how can I, uh, leading, how can I make it more comfortable for him, for the other individual that's wired like that, to come my way? 29:08 And what I f- I'm gonna throw this out. I found that without any, any framing, if I'm asking someone to take something on, there's no structure, there's no framing. Right. There's just, "Go do this. 29:20 Here's the end result I want." It's like there's never gonna be enough data or fact-finding to remove all risk. Mm-hmm. So what I would say is I would either make the scope a fixed small scope. Mm-hmm, sure. 29:33 Typically, that's what I would do and say. One, one piece of it. Just, just do the research and make recommendations or something like that, you know? Sure. It would take 29:43 that burden off, and it would help me modulate my ask, right? Yeah. 'Cause I'm making- Yeah... a request of someone that has no boundaries on it because that's the way I live. [laughs] That's a great strategy. 29:57 And, and just allowing, as you're saying, allow them time to go ahead- Time... and, and gather the information. And then the next one is what do you do with structure? 30:06 So this blue line right here is to the degree to which you traditionally organize and design things. So think of it as someone who's much more adaptable and kinda random in the way they do things. 30:19 Um, they're gonna be switching gears a lot, down to someone who naturally forces closure and just kind of organizes in the traditional way, right? So if you're in that ki- and by the way, it's a one through 10 scale. 30:32 If you're in that one through 10 kind of... or the one through three category, you still organize. You just organize in piles. So you still have a method of organization But it is not color-coded and alphabetized, right? 30:44 So- It wouldn't meet the definition of organization for someone who is, you know, six and above or something in that- Yeah... area. So we need those seven through 10s to, like, create the structure, design a process. 30:58 But we also need people on the other end to push back when things get too bureaucratic. Mm-hmm. And this is where the magic of teamwork comes. You know, we need diversity in all of them. 31:07 And then there is, what do you do with change? Mm. What do you do with risk and change? 31:12 And this is this degree to which you will push innovation and brainstorm multiple ideas up to someone who's gonna stabilize and say, "Whoa, there's... This is too risky," or help prevent chaos. 31:24 So Joe, I think, let's see yours. I think you're an eight. Oh, yeah, I'm an eight. On a scale of t- one to 10. Yeah. Yep, quick start. 31:31 And you know, that mir- [laughs] quick start, that, that mirrors where I was successful in my career. Mm-hmm. So when I was brought into, you know, IT leadership roles to s- to start, to re- reboot, 31:46 or to, to, you know, m- move the whole program or to, you know, drive a specific project quickly, that was a great match for who I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. You're the person that can just come in and drive something new. 32:03 When it is new, when it is innovative, you'll say what hasn't been done before- Right... versus how can we build on what's happened? 32:10 And by the way, your type of result, during the pandemic, I worked with so many entrepreneurs who said, "I almost feel guilty because I am in the zone. 32:20 I've been running the same business for so long, and this is the first time in a while that I have just been energized," because they got to tap into, everything we've been doing in the past isn't working right now. 32:33 We gotta create something new. And that's who you want at that moment to, to do that. Now, long-term basis, if we throw out too many people that are like that, so I'm an eight in Quick Start too, like you. 32:44 We'll have a lot of fun brainstorming- Mm-hmm... 32:45 but we need someone on the other end to say, "Out of the 50 ideas you guys just came up with, you know, here are the ones that are a little too risky, and why are you throwing the baby out with the bathwater," right? 32:56 We know that statement. Yeah. Like, let's maintain what's working while you're driving innovation. Yeah. So- Yeah... innovation teams, everybody, do not have just a bunch of people that look like Joe and me on it. 33:09 It has a combination. Really solid innovation teams need driving change, but at the same time, uh, accommodating, you know, what needs to stay the same. Yeah. It's like any team. 33:20 You wanna make sure you balance your overall capabilities. To use that, going back to the baseball or the baseball and basketball question- Sure... and making a decision on a, a new pick. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 33:33 And then last but not least is this yellow line, and this is the implementer. This is, what do you do with the three-dimensional world? So how do you handle space and tangibles? 33:42 And it's this continuum from someone who will make decisions in a more abstract way down to concrete. 33:48 So there are people that are solving problems and executing all day long with a focus on quality, building or using tools. Um, think about in medicine. 33:59 I love using medicine as an example because both of my kids are in medicine, so it's kind of interesting to see. 34:04 We have a lot of data on surgeons, and they have higher implementer numbers 'cause they're actually laying hands on patients. Mm-hmm. They're using tools to perform medicine. 34:14 When we go to our general practitioner or internal medicine doc, they ask you a bunch of questions in the abstract and may never lay hands on a patient, and in an abstract way, take in data and diagnose and perform medicine. 34:27 So we need people on all ends of that continuum, uh, as well. So I'm a three in implementer. I tend to do things... You know, I'll have an idea, I'm abstract. 34:37 I work with people kind of in the middle of the continuum, and they will draw or build a model. They will really focus- Mm-hmm... on taking an idea and making it a tangible thing. 34:47 Kathy Colby's a four in implementer, whereas I'm a three, and when she has ideas on training ideas, she'll create a game. She will make it a tangible- Something physical. Yeah. Yeah. 34:59 Build a 3D model, which helps the people who need that. Yeah. It doesn't mean you don't get anything done. So you can fall anywhere on these continuums and be really successful, uh, and get things done. Yeah. 35:11 Follow through, the higher the number means that they tend to force closure on one thing before going to the next, versus someone who's starting a project, doing a little bit of something else, coming back to that. 35:23 That's how they do their best work. Both of them might finish the project at the exact same time, but how they get there will look very different. Yeah. Okay. [laughs] So we need to not assign judgment to the- Yes... 35:34 all of them can finish, yeah, and accomplish. And I know you keep hammering this, and I think this is really important, is, is people need to accept themselves. 35:44 It brings to mind something I've wanted to ask you about, and that is the whole, um, challenge of external conditioning. Mm. Sort of stuck in BF Skinner's box, you know? Yeah. Yeah. 35:55 [laughs] In a coaching, uh, scenario, I often find people who are in a particular career that they've had a lot of external messaging saying, you know, "Well, 36:10 I kind of always wanted to do this, but it didn't really make sense. I wasn't gonna make any money at it, so..." 36:16 And so, uh, uh, often it's, you blame it on your parents, but it can be other, uh, prominent voices in your life saying, "Well, you should be a- an attorney," or, "You should be a doctor," or something like that. 36:27 Um, and then they... People lean into that. They go to school. They become that person. Mm-hmm. And they have that constant abrasion. They can do it- Sure... but it exhausts them, and we talked a little bit about that. 36:43 So talk to me a little bit about that whole concept of conditioning and external-... uh, factors that we deal with. 36:53 And also, at the same time, talk to me about the whole where does that concept fit with the preference-based tools? Mm-hmm. Is there any overlap with that? Is that something completely different? Yeah. 37:06 So I'll start with that. I don't find that there's any overlap with that. Right. But if we went back to the beginning and saw the three parts of the mind, a great career is where you've got a fit in all three. 37:17 That's really the sweet spot, right? So it has to be something that really uses your skills and experience. 37:23 And so it wants to be a good fit for your skills, and it needs to be something that when you talk about the affect or the personality that you care about. Mm. 37:32 So you have to share the values of an organization or what you do. There's got to be some degree of motivation for whatever industry you're in. So let's just start there. 37:42 I know a lot of people who become a doctor because their parent was a doctor, and that is not an industry that gets them jazzed. Mm. So, or a lawyer or anything else that you're using. 37:54 So you have to really care about whatever it is. But just, you have the skills and you care about it's not enough, 'cause frankly, there, there is some reality of, listen, I love pets. 38:05 Does that mean I should make that my business? Not necessarily, right? So should I really, [chuckles] you know, go into animals? I mean, maybe if that's what you love. 38:14 But in a lot of cases, just saying follow your passion, that's that personality and what you prefer part- Mm... is shallow. 38:20 There needs to be more because we, we really have this need to kind of, um, produce and excel and perform, um, and do things that give us some level of satisfaction. 38:31 So when you take that Colby piece, it has to be a fit there too. The conditioning comes in, boy, so early. I think you touched on it. Certainly with your parents. 38:42 I mean, I was raised by, in a family where almost everyone had a lot of need for data and facts, and here I am, this three in fact finder simplifier by, uh, you know, by nature. 38:54 When you sat at the dinner table in my family- Mm... and you had an opinion about something, you then had to back that up with facts. 39:01 "Well, you know, tell me why that's true," and, "Where have you gotten this information?" And, and it was just this whole data gathering, justify, like justify your answers kind of thing. 39:12 So my conditioning did start very early. Mm. Yeah. Um, and it, so it can start there, but there are just certain industries where there's kind of one right way to do things. Yeah. 39:22 Where a mentor, you picked a mentor because they have this career that you want, and yet that mentor does things differently than you. Mm. 39:31 So now I'm conditioned to think there is one right way to get things done and I need to change myself. I think that's where that comes in. 39:39 And long term, I have met so many people in their 50s and 60s who will say, "If I had just known this about myself earlier, I would have made very different decisions." Mm. 39:50 So, you know, I'm on a mission to get people way before they get conditioned. There you go. 39:56 However they're going to get conditioned, um, I would like to hit people a little earlier and help them understand how to start figuring out their strengths. It just starts with clarity, right? Yeah. 40:06 An- another personal story, 'cause you said, you know, you'd like to get to people earlier. For me, you know, I 40:16 picked science early on, and I was an analytical chemist in pharmaceutical industry for nine, almost 10 years. And, and you can see, if you look back in time, your, 40:30 your, uh, conative, um, wi- wiring I'll call it, conative wiring- Yeah... um, and how it operated. So you would look at that. 40:40 An analytical chemist is not a person who, not a, a, a position or a job or a role where you're coming up with new chemical compounds. This is someone who's testing- Yeah... 40:50 and finding out how much of a certain thing is in a mixture or in the pharmaceutical context, you're designing test methods to, 41:00 that are reliable, precise, and accurate that, you know, could release product or, or, or characterize where you are in, in a production process, for example. Or, you know, make sure it's safe- Mm-hmm... 41:13 and these pills or capsules or whatever they might be, biologics, aren't gonna hurt somebody, right? Because of- Right... how it's manufactured. So it's very different than what some people think. 41:23 But here's the thing that I found out about myself. I could follow those recipes, those test methods. I even could, um, uh, do that very well, but I was always looking for doing it a new and better way. Sure. 41:42 That was boring to me- Yeah... doing that repetitious job. And so I was always looking at, "How can I change this? What else can we do?" Yeah. And because of that, uh, not to dwell on myself too much, 41:55 I, I really started focusing in the laboratory about how much paperwork there was back in those days. 42:01 Handwriting things, writing labels to put on drums and packaging for release product, and it was like, "I'm spending hours doing this. This is stupid. They have these computer systems that can do things like this. 42:15 Why don't we use this in the lab?" Yeah. And so that's how I segued into a different career, was as a quick start, pushing an idea 42:26 and being a catalyst for change took me to a different career, getting knowledgeable in laboratory information systems. Right. 42:35 And then that, in turn, took me into a more traditional IT role, and I spent 35 years doing IT leadership. But I can look back in time now and see how operating in my area of strength, how powerful that was. 42:52 And how I couldn't, actually, I didn't feel like I'd even, could even stay bottled up in that particular role. Right. Right? Yeah. 42:58 So I don't know if you have examples of that or, or have heard of things, but to me, it... I would have loved to have known earlier. Mm-hmm. And the final part of the story was that, 43:08 and you talked about how much you like psychology and how much you love what you're doing right now. I found out that, and I thought, "Well, I'm, I'm an IT leader. You know, I'm, I'm running departments." 43:20 And after the first few years in a particular company, I was like, "Oh, this is so boring." [laughs] Well, well- And I started, once I got to know myself better through Kolbe and, and other things in getting a coach, 43:33 I realized I really like doing that. And so I was doing that on the side the last 15 years of my, my leadership career 'cause I, it kind of went to another path. 43:44 So many people make lots of shifts, is the point I'm making, and sometimes you just sort of stumble into where you need to be. And for me, I kind of stumbled earlier on till I got more clarity. 43:56 But how great it would be to know earlier on- Yeah... your innate wiring, your innate MO, and to capitalize on that. Well, it sounds like you made really good decisions along the way. [laughs] I think the only... 44:10 You, you did. So- I improvised... yeah, you were improvising, but you kept pushing toward what was natural for you. Yeah. 44:17 But I think the only difference it really would've made is when you were bored or something was driving you crazy or there was a frustration- Mm-hmm... you would've known, "Well, of course, this is frustrating for me. 44:27 It's okay. Like, I've got a way around it." 'Cause I think people are, they really beat themselves up sometimes- Yeah, yeah... 44:33 for either not being great at something or what is m- you know, what is wrong with me or why can't I sustain this? So you maybe just would've given yourself a little bit of a break. 44:41 But what I love about the example you just shared is how every step of the way you were kind of experimenting and figuring out the career. 44:50 And what I would hope is the more you know about your strengths in all three parts of the mind, some decisions just become clearer. Mm. 'Cause there are opportunities that present themselves to you sometimes. 45:01 It's not always that we're creating our own opportunities, and it's like, "Gosh, should I make this next step?" 45:06 And when people really understand their strengths, they actually say no to things that on the surface- Yeah... are great because they're like, "Nope, that's not for me. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna forge this other path." 45:15 So decisions become clearer. You give yourself a break a little bit and, and you're not as frustrated 'cause you understand why things, some things you're in the zone and other things you aren't. 45:27 Um, but yes, if we could do a couple of things for people early in their career, and the first thing is, you know, understand that it's not a straight line, especially any- anymore, and that's okay. 45:39 I, I was in a group of women business owners recently. There was about 12 of us, and everyone went around the room and said, "What was your early career? How did you get here?" 45:48 Not one of them are anywhere close to where they started. And by the way, I know the Kolbe results of all these people. They're all over the map. Mm-hmm. 45:56 [laughs] So this is not a someone who drives change, quick start kinda thing. Mm-hmm. I mean, one person was a paramedic and now owns the largest, uh, commercial furniture company, you know, in Arizona. Yeah. 46:07 And so you look at this kind of path. So there is no one straight path, and that's okay. You don't have to figure out your whole life right now. 46:14 Um, but then the second thing is just get real clear about your strengths because the decisions will be easier along the way. Mm-hmm. 46:22 And frankly, with, even with my own kids, sometimes I, I think it's not a bad thing to be in a role where you're working against your grain some of the time because it does a couple of things. 46:32 Number one is you get really good at strategies for working against your grain. Um, the second is you get, you develop some level of resilience, right? 46:40 So there is something to be said for not always just being in this perfect situation where you don't have to struggle a little bit. Um, so some of that is fine. Too much of it is not. Yeah. 46:51 There really is a line where, where it will be burnout. But I think, you know, try a little bit of everything, and it's okay if it's working against your grain. Oh, boy. So this has been great. 47:03 I really appreciate your time. I know we're, we're kind of over a little bit. So Amy, thank you so much. How can people, uh, find you, find the organization? Do you have some information to drop here? And- Sure... 47:16 yeah, I can put links in the show notes, too, of course, but I'd love to hear it from you. Yeah. 47:22 Well, the most, the easiest way to find out anything about Kolbe and what we do is just going to kolbe.com, and that's spelled K-O-L-B-E.com. 47:31 And on our website, you can see solutions both for in your work life and your personal life because I, we haven't talked about it yet today, but we do have, uh, assessments for youth and solutions for parents and couples and things like that. 47:44 So our website'll give you any kind of information you need to at least get your own strengths figured out. 47:50 It's very inexpensive to just get your Kolbe A and maybe of the people that you work with or you care about most as well. So, um, yeah, we're... Contact us. We are here to help. That's the way to start. That's awesome. 48:02 Thanks once again. And everyone, I just, um, I, I, I've been a little effusive about the instrument and about the technology, but if you haven't heard of Kolbe, I, I... you should check it out for sure. 48:14 So thanks again, Amy, for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you. It was fun. [outro music] Hey, thanks for joining me today on Titans of Transition. I hope you enjoyed the episode. 48:27 Please check the show notes for additional information.
